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The noble Lords, Lord Bew and Lord Maginnis, and the noble Baroness raised the issue of heightened sensitivity to double-jobbing in the Assembly and the inability of Northern Ireland politicians to play a full part at Westminster-something about which we should all be concerned. I appreciate the concerns raised by noble Lords in relation to representation at Westminster.
Viscount Brookeborough: I thank the Minister for giving way. Would she not agree that she has contradicted the meaning of what she said? On the one hand, she said that the political parties in Northern Ireland do not have a consensus on this; on the other hand, she said that they will look at it. This is a voluntary regulation, and there are too many cases where we have looked for voluntary regulation and it has not come about. We will be waiting until the cows come home-the political parties will suppress new talent while they believe that they have a hold over the current system.
4 pm
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, the Government have said, quite clearly, that they agree with the Kelly report. We agree that double-jobbing must end by 2015. What we are talking about is
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The noble Baroness asked how the amendments would affect Sinn Fein. The intended effect of the amendments would be that Sinn Fein MLAs who are also MPs would go from receiving the full MLA salary to receiving nothing. That is the effect of the amendments.
Were these amendments to be accepted, we at Westminster would be imposing a change of elected representative on many constituents in Northern Ireland. Whatever our opinions here about dual mandates, people in Northern Ireland saw fit to elect people to more than one legislature. Although I hear what noble Lords have said-
Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Perhaps I could suggest that there is an entirely different explanation for what has happened. I am sad to say that, through the actions of the Government, those parties that were supported until 1998, and which the population supported in a referendum to establish an agreement in Northern Ireland, were consistently-and sometimes, one is led to imagine, deliberately-undermined in order to change the balance of power in Northern Ireland and put it in the hands of those who had associations with the most difficult and despicable elements in our society. To walk away from this amendment would leave me-and, I believe, many in Northern Ireland-with the impression that the Government are determined to persist with building up those two despicable cabals to the detriment of the civil society that most people wish to see.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I hear the strength of feeling expressed by the noble Lord and understand what he says. However, this is not about cabals. We are talking about a timescale, as I explained earlier. There is a 2015 deadline and a 2011 deadline. However, I have not finished what I was saying. We believe that it should be the parties in Northern Ireland that come to an agreed position on the issue. If the parties that represent the people of Northern Ireland agreed that the amendments were the correct way to bring dual mandates to an end, the Government would have no difficulty with that.
Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: It sounds like turkeys voting for Christmas.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: Well, it is surprising what one has seen in one's life. It is not the case that the Government are interested in protecting the DUP and Sinn Fein, which is what the noble Lord was
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Lord Glentoran: My Lords, I thank the Minister, particularly for those last few words. It is a long time since I took the opportunity to tell the Government that I think they are totally wrong. There were many occasions in the past, but in recent years we have agreed on most things going forward and I am sorry that we do not on this particular issue.
Noble Lords behind me raised a number of issues, all of which are relevant and should be seriously taken into account. One word has not been used, which I think the Secretary of State needs to use-that is, to have a little courage. It is easy to walk away from the difficult decisions and leave them to somebody else. I do not believe that this is a difficult decision, however, or that if the Government accept this amendment there will be any problems from people who are Members of the Assembly and Westminster. However, it will take a certain amount of courage, and I have not seen much of that from the current Secretary of State.
The other thing that I do not wish to happen is to see the Government defeated on any Northern Ireland legislation. Having listened to what has been said in this debate and to the strength of feeling from the opposition parties, it is my inclination that that could well happen when we bring the amendment back on Report.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: There are two things. As I mentioned earlier, I have been listening to noble Lords and will reflect further and come back on Report, but I am not sure what is going to happen. However, I wish to defend my Secretary of State against the allegation that he has not shown courage. I know that Northern Ireland has had difficult days for many months and years, but in the difficult months in which I have been involved, my Secretary of State has shown courage. I wish to place that on record.
Lord Glentoran: I thank the Minister for that. I accept her defence of the Secretary of State and withdraw my criticism. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Bill reported without amendments.
Committee adjourned at 4.10 pm.
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