MRS DAWN PRIMAROLO, MR JIM FITZPATRICK, MRS SANDRA WEBBER, DR RAY JOHNSTON

17 JULY 2007

  Q300  Lord Haskel: If your confidence is in the fact that no reports have been received, of course the alternative could be true, that they do not know about the mechanism of reporting and that is why no reports are received through the alternative mechanism.

  Jim Fitzpatrick: The fact that the procedures are there, that they are publicised and that there are reports from cabin crew for other actions and activities tends to suggest that both mechanisms are being used. One can never say that an incident has not been reported because that will be a matter of individual professional integrity. All kinds of factors may get in the way to prevent someone from reporting an incident, but we are confident that the evidence and the reports that we are receiving are accurate and they do supply us with information which says that there is a potential problem. We are not ignoring that problem. We are not ignoring the reports. We are spending quite a bit of money to make sure that we can get the equipment to be able to do the sampling upon which we can analyse the results and determine from those results what the cause and effect is, whether it is short term ill health or long term problems. We are very much at an early stage but we are putting a lot of effort and resource into addressing this problem because we do acknowledge that there is an issue of concern here.

  Lord Haskel: I am sure that when you have done all that work there will be a lot of important information which will be very valuable.

  Q301  Chairman: May I return to one of Lord Haskel's questions? We are aware that at least one airline has been telling pilots not to report these events. Do you not think government should do something about this?

  Mrs Webber: There was a parliamentary question. It is better that I give you the answer to that so that we are consistent. The airline in question was a cargo airline, DHL Air Limited. This was a question asked in March in the House of Commons by Tobias Ellwood, MP, and the answer given was, "The DHL instruction referred to has been assessed by a CAA flight operations inspector as part of the full range of company instructions relating to smoke, fumes and air contamination. The instruction was promulgated as follow up information additional to the relevant normal, abnormal and emergency procedures. These include company guidance for the use of oxygen and masks. The CAA inspector found that the instruction was acceptable in that context as part of the overall regime and the operator has taken steps to ensure in training sessions that it must not be interpreted as a dilution of the company's safety policy with regard to reporting of incidents of this type."

  Q302  Earl of Selborne: You gave some very interesting statistics and I think you said that you would expect these events to happen in between half a per cent and one per cent of flights. I think you also said that some types of aircraft were more prone than others to this. Does that mean that there are some aircraft where you would expect the incidents to be more often than half to one per cent or is that all types of aircraft, this half to one per cent?

  Jim Fitzpatrick: May I ask Mrs Webber if she has the statistics to hand in respect of the 146 and the 757s and the relationship to the half to one per cent?

  Mrs Webber: The half per cent is overall and therefore, yes, there have been higher incidences on some aircraft types. The Advisory Committee on Toxicity which is doing a lot of work on this began a project about a year ago to evaluate a whole raft of information provided by BALPA, but has also gone beyond that as part of its evaluation and has called for the databases from the CAA and from a number of airlines and has worked out the statistics. This is where we got the figure from because they have looked at all the databases in existence that they can get hold of. They have found that those aircraft are more prevalent in terms of reports of this than others so, yes, that would be higher than half a per cent.

  Q303  Earl of Selborne: You see the relevance of my question because if you are going to do 1,000 flights and if you are going to concentrate on those aircraft which are more susceptible, you would be closer to the one per cent range than the half per cent range. Even then you are only going to get ten events, but that is going to be a lot better than five.

  Mrs Webber: Absolutely. If it were not for the fact that we were going to be using the particular target aircraft, the advice that we have had from the Committee on Toxicity is that we might have to sample 3,000 if we were going to do it completely randomly. By focusing in on airlines which are deemed to have a problem, it enables us to reduce the number and therefore, in terms of cost effectiveness and also the practicalities of getting all these devices through security and placing them on aircraft and explaining to passengers where necessary what they are, it make it all much more practical.

  Q304  Baroness Platt of Writtle: We did have some evidence, although I do not have it in front of me, that it is a feature of short haul and the fact that they are climbing and have a very short period of cruising at one particular height, so they are going up and coming down. Have you had any evidence of that?

  Mrs Webber: I heard that. That was Captain Tim Bamber from BALPA who did say that was his own theory. However, certainly the analysis that the Committee on Toxicity has done has found that, with one of these two aircraft types, the 146 and the 757, the predominance of reports was on the climb. The other aircraft type was more evenly spread throughout the flight so certainly there is some evidence that there is more occurrence of fume events on the climb.

  Q305  Chairman: We have heard from pilots' unions last week that low cost airlines schedule work for pilots in such a way that their normal roster is to fly to the maximum permitted number of hours and that their rest periods are being eroded. What is the government and the regulator's view of this?

  Jim Fitzpatrick: Like all employers in a competitive environment, airlines naturally seek to maximise the utilisation of their crews. However, safety is the UK's top priority in aviation. We have one of the best records in the world. We intend to do all we can to keep it. The law requires all operators of public transport flights to limit the hours that pilots work through adherence to a flight times limitation scheme approved by the CAA. The CAA is working closely with airlines, including the low cost sector, and has already identified a number of initiatives such as monitoring the outcome of rostering and training on measures to counter fatigue. The Department for Transport and the CAA are keen to discuss this issue with BALPA. The Secretary of State wrote to BALPA on 5 June inviting them to come in to discuss their survey with officials, so this is a report that we are indeed taking seriously.

  Q306  Chairman: Does the Aviation Health Working Group have an interest in pilots' fatigue? What are you doing about it?

  Jim Fitzpatrick: It has not made it a work project so far, but we are looking at it and obviously at the meeting that we will have with BALPA they may very well ask the working group to look at it. We are open to that question.

  Q307  Lord Haskel: The point that was made when we were told about this by BALPA was that by working the maximum hours, by the time the pilot gets into his car and drives himself home, he is a danger to himself. The point was raised that this should be taken into account because it is as much about pilots' safety as the passengers' safety. I wonder whether you have taken this matter into account?

  Jim Fitzpatrick: We are about to meet with BALPA and I am sure, having raised it with yourselves, they will raise it with us. It is something that we are very keen to get to the bottom of because, although airlines naturally have a duty to the public and to shareholders to fly, the issue of safety is paramount. If safety were to be compromised as a result of fatigue, obviously we would need to address that seriously. My Secretary of State has written to the pilots' union to come in and discuss this item. The Aviation Health Working Group will be prepared to look at it but that will be a matter pending the outcome of the discussions we will have with them shortly.

  Q308  Chairman: Do you think there is a chance that the government might recommend a revision of the CAA's CAP 371?

  Jim Fitzpatrick: I would not wish to anticipate the outcome of discussions, especially only having been in the job for the past two weeks. To start laying down rules about operating hours at this stage would be a trifle ambitious for a parliamentary under-secretary.

Chairman: Thank you, Ministers, Mrs Webber and Dr Johnston, for coming to talk to us. It was a very valuable session. If there is anything else that occurs to you, please let us know. It can be still included in our inquiry. Thank you very much.