CAPTAIN TIM BAMBER, MR SIMON EVANS AND MR PETER JACKSON

10 JULY 2007

  Q200  Lord Sutherland of Houndwood: I can assure you it is the same for passengers in many cases.

  Captain Bamber: Passengers pay good money so they get preference now.

  Q201  Lord Colwyn: We heard earlier of the potential crash because of the fume event. An automatic pilot is available, is it not, in a situation like that?

  Captain Bamber: But the automatic pilots have a tendency to trip out and fail.

  Q202  Baroness Platt of Writtle: Anyway it was coming in to land, was it not?

  Captain Bamber: Yes.

  Q203  Baroness Platt of Writtle: Going back to what you were saying, do you think low-cost flying is what is really causing these changes?

  Mr Jackson: From the IPA's point of view, yes.

  Mr Evans: May I throw in a slight note of caution? Of course as a consumer organisation we have, like all consumer organisations, safety as the number one priority. I just wonder whether pilots' hours and fatigue are more issues for the safety regulator than for an Aviation Health Working Group. Of course fatigue is a health issue but I just wonder whether we should let is go as read that it would be an issue for the Aviation Health Working Group rather than for the safety regulators in the first instance.

  Captain Bamber: It is primarily a role for the safety regulators, there is no doubt about it, but we have the Aviation Health Working Group, a bipartisan body, which we do not have in the safety regulators. The Aviation Health Working Group has worked so well in the last year or so that it seems to be an excellent forum in which contentious issues might be examined in a de-heated manner, so to speak; people can sit around and look at it in a close environment. Is there a clear demarcation line between aviation health and safety?

  Q204  Chairman: Do all of you agree that the working group is ideally constituted and doing the optimum job that it can do?

  Mr Jackson: No, because we are not allowed to be on it.

  Mr Evans: From my organisation's perspective it may be in a position to look at organic change, if even I know what I mean by "organic". It was a group which set out with a specific remit to look at aviation health issues and most of us understood what we meant by "aviation health issues" at the time, which was to find out whether there was any data which supported some of the claims being made about deep vein thrombosis, for example, whether there really were any issues about cabin air quality which were causing health problems for passengers and flight crew. Most of those issues have now been teased out and certainly the recommendations from your 2000 report have been taken account of by the group. It may be that now the Aviation Health Working Group is in a position, not exactly of having concluded its remit, but maybe where the priorities may change. If the suggestion is that there is need for an inclusive forum to consider health issues, then that would not necessarily be an extension of the remit of the Aviation Health Working Group but an alternative forum where those issues could be aired. They are being aired and I have an open mind as to whether the suggestion is that there is a need for another forum for it.

  Q205  Lord Haskel: The point which is being made is that the pilot is a danger after he has finished work, when he is driving home, because of fatigue.

  Captain Bamber: As well, yes.

  Q206  Lord Haskel: Is the AHWG looking into that aspect as well?

  Captain Bamber: Not as yet. I hope that it might be something that the Aviation Health Working Group would look into. Because we have a bipartisan, across the industry, functioning group, we ought to say "Hey, we've got this thing going. By all accounts it took a while to get it going properly, but it is going, it is working properly. Let's be proud of it and let's utilise it in other areas of aviation". I do not accept that there is a clear division between health and safety; in my mind the two go together. It might be that it meets one month and it is called the Aviation Health Working Group and another month it is called the Aviation Safety Working Group, with basically the same constituent parts.

  Q207  Baroness Platt of Writtle: Security measures were put in place after 11 September including the locking of the cockpit in flight. Are pilots able to move around and exercise sufficiently to prevent fatigue and even perhaps VTE?

  Captain Bamber: You still need to perform the functions of nature, which means getting up and leaving the cockpit.

  Q208  Baroness Platt of Writtle: Do you unlock the door then and lock it again?

  Captain Bamber: You unlock the door and then a member of the cabin crew comes in to replace the pilot. You go out and go to the loo and when you have finished you buzz through and the door is unlocked and the two swap over again.

  Q209  Baroness Platt of Writtle: So that is okay.

  Captain Bamber: That is okay. Since you have brought it up, I would say that the security measures which have come in since 11 September are the biggest single bone of contention as far as pilots are concerned. It is an incredible irritant. There are two spare seats in most aeroplane cockpits and those seats were the gift of the captain. It meant, for instance, if you were away from home for a week's trip, that you could take your wife. I used to do that, I used to enjoy doing that and my wife used to enjoy coming on an occasional trip. I forgot my son's 18th birthday and I took him on a trip because I was not off work for it. That was banned by the regulatory authorities.

  Q210  Baroness Platt of Writtle: I am an aeronautical engineer and I have been invited into cockpits on a number of occasions.

  Captain Bamber: Since 11 September?

  Q211  Baroness Platt of Writtle: No.

  Captain Bamber: We used to be able to invite people in; it was something we enjoyed doing. I heard the tail end of your evidence about a passenger who was frightened of flying. One of the things we used to do with the passengers who were frightened of flying was to take them into the cockpit and show them all the safety features and show them the things we have. We cannot do that any more. It has diminished our enjoyment of the job, partly because we cannot interact with the passengers as well. We might get some engineer on the flight deck whom we do not know, who is from another company. He is not a security risk but apparently my wife might hit me over the head with an axe and she is a security risk. It is something which has caused an enormous amount of tension amongst pilots and the added security measures which came in last August as well have caused even more. A number of pilots have come very close to losing their jobs as a result of the measures.

  Q212  Earl of Selborne: I should like to go back to fume events about which we have talked quite a bit already. There is obviously agreement that fume events do happen, but some disagreement over the extent of the health implications for pilots and crew. How widespread is the concern over fume events amongst pilots and crew? What advice do you give your members when they contact you claiming to have suffered a fume event?

  Captain Bamber: The worry about fume events varies from airline to airline and aircraft type to aircraft type. It is not universal across the profession. The 146 pilots, because that has been one of the alleged rogue aeroplanes, are very concerned, as are some of the 757 pilots. It was a particular engine fit on the 757 which appeared to give the problems. There is a great deal of anxiety amongst them.

  Q213  Earl of Selborne: What advice do you give your members?

  Captain Bamber: At the present time our advice is, if they have suffered symptoms, that they should take a full 12-hour rest before considering a return to duty. If symptoms remain they should seek medical assistance. We are expecting that to change shortly, because the COT committee did talk about blood tests and biomarkers, in paragraph 71, if anyone wants to read it. At the present time we do not know what is being produced in fume events. It could be any one of 97 different chemicals. Hopefully we will have data shortly. I specifically brought up this question with the COT secretariat. I asked them "What would you recommend us to recommend to the pilots? Would you recommend blood tests at the present time?". The answer was no, because we do not know what to test for. By the time we know what to test for it might well be helpful if they have blood tests within 12 to 24 hours at the latest. It has to be by a recognised institute, et cetera. We would probably be looking to modify this advice, when data starts coming through from the trials that the DfT are doing at the moment, to recommend a blood test to see from their blood whether people have actually suffered anything. There is genuine concern out there. There are people who are sick and people are saying they are sick because of fume events. Whether that is true or not we have not yet proved, but certainly there are pilots who are sick and I am one of them.

  Mr Jackson: May I read you what we send our pilots? Because it is happening so frequently now we have put something together. I will put it in with our written submission. They should make sure they have raised a technical log entry; that is to record the defect. They should raise a mandatory occurrence or a special air safety report and put it in to the company because the CAA needs to know about it. They should send a copy of the MOR or ASR to our office so we can track it through the system; from past history, a lot get lost. Should they manifest any of the symptoms listed below—and we list the symptoms which seem, from what we can draw using various websites and speaking to passengers, to be symptoms to look out for—or their company requires them to attend a local medical establishment after a fume event, whether in the UK or abroad, for blood tests they should ensure that they get a sample for themselves to bring back and ask how it should be stored. In consultation with their GP, or their area medical examiner, they may care to consider the following contacts: Biolab for the blood tests, Dr Sarah MacKenzie Ross, from whom you heard a short while ago, because of her research; Drs Jamal and Julu at the peripheral nerve and autonomic unit at Imperial College Department of Neurology. We are also now seeking to find out specific lung function tests which seem in certain cases to be required, but we need to get a specialist to find out about that. Their GP or AME should be able to arrange for these tests. Whichever doctor they use they should be sure to inform the other that they are doing it to keep advice flowing backwards and forwards. If further advice is required, they should contact the IPA's office. They should keep the IPA informed on how things are going and pass back any information or advice to benefit other members who may find themselves in the position in future. They should keep copies of all relevant paperwork and tests and send copies of all relevant paperwork and tests to the IPA so we can maintain a central file should they want to use the information later. Finally, as you are no doubt aware, this is currently a highly contentious issue but be assured the IPA is actively participating in getting a result and their help is essential.

  Q214  Earl of Selborne: Are you aware of any airlines discouraging pilots from reporting fume events?

  Mr Jackson: Yes.

  Captain Bamber: Reluctantly I would have to agree with that; yes, there are airlines who have issued notices to pilots. The particular airline I am thinking of I am not going to name because they have been helping with our inquiries, but they did at one stage issue an ASR flight crew notice saying that in certain circumstances fume events were normal and they should not be written in the tech log.

  Q215  Earl of Selborne: Would Mr Jackson like to add anything to his monosyllabic reply?

  Mr Jackson: Yes. I said yes in such a way as to draw your attention in fact to how serious the event is. The directive to which Captain Bamber refers has not been rescinded to date, as far as our members tell us. The company concerned is still actively seeking to minimise the recording of such events. There is another airline which is implementing other systems of reporting which would not come forward on the Civil Aviation Authority's database such as "Send an email to the chief engineer" and "Do it all through the back door".

  Q216  Lord Colwyn: In the seminar which we had, and maybe it is just I who does not understand it, we heard that some aircraft have separate air supplies to cockpit and to cabin. Is that correct?

  Captain Bamber: Yes.

  Q217  Lord Colwyn: I think there was disagreement in the seminar and I did not really understand whether it is different aircraft.

  Captain Bamber: Different aircraft's engine systems and air conditioning systems are different, but some aeroplanes have a different supply to the cockpit from the rest of the cabin; the 757 is an example. Some do not.

  Q218  Lord Colwyn: So the common fume events you talk about in 757s do not affect the cabin.

  Captain Bamber: The cockpit air for the 757 comes from the left pack and cabin air comes from both packs. The cockpit air subsequently goes into the cabin. So the cabin will get the fumes which the cockpit gets. Seventy per cent of the air is re-circulated so it goes through a filtration system and goes back into it. The re-circulated air will contain air coming from the cockpit and if there are fumes in the cockpit, they will get into the cabin.

  Q219  Lord Colwyn: And the pressure would be such that it moves from the cockpit—

  Captain Bamber: No. I heard that as well, that there was a differential in pressure between the cockpit and the cabin but there is not. There is a slight air flow from cockpit to cabin, but there is no pressurised bulkhead door.