4920. Perhaps I should not ask you to speculate on the likelihood of success in terms of convincing the Fire Service that they do not need this shaft.

   (Mr Berryman) No, that is quite correct. I cannot answer that question, I am afraid.

  4921. But you are trying?

   (Mr Berryman) We have put some further documents to them in the last couple of months. This is an iterative process but I would be misleading you if I said that we were nearly there.

  4922. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: But it is clearly worth doing.

   (Mr Berryman) It is worth putting the effort in, certainly.

  4923. MR ELVIN: So far as the Rail Regulator is concerned, that lies within the hands of the independent Regulator, does it not?

   (Mr Berryman) It does indeed. Rail safety is now part of the Regulator's function.

  4924. CHAIRMAN: If there was a shaft would it be about the sort of size that we saw at Rotherhithe?

   (Mr Berryman) Similar, my Lord.

  4925. And it would be likely to make a similar noise?

   (Mr Berryman) Yes, my Lord. In fact, it would be likely generally to make no noise at all because most of the time it would be switched off.

  4926. There is also the one in the corner of New Palace Yard that people can go and look at if they want to.

   (Mr Berryman) That is right, my Lord.

  4927. And listen to.

   (Mr Berryman) Yes, when it is switched on.

  4928. MR ELVIN: Unless the Committee has any further questions or any of the Petitioners who are present wish to ask any questions, that concludes my questions in chief of Mr Berryman on these issues.

  4929. CHAIRMAN: Are there any Petitioners here who want to ask any questions?

  4930. MS JORDAN: I am terribly sorry. Jil Cove was dealing with the lorry routes but could I ask a couple of questions? Could I just have up the lorry route map that you have?[23] Obviously, it is the lorry route round Spitalfields that I want to talk about, and probably, if I have a steady enough hand, my office is about there (indicating), so you are quite right, Mr Berryman: this entry in here (indicating) is exceedingly small. It is in fact a one-way street and it just about takes a lorry width. One of its major problems is this junction here (indicating) because you are coming from the east and then turning across the people that are going east. This is a terrible junction, and certainly in the last two years we have had three major accidents with pedestrians there. Could I ask what provisions you are going to make for the lorries turning across this road here (indicating) because the problem is this major junction that comes in here (indicating) onto it. It is a junction with a side road and it is already very problematic as far as pedestrians are concerned. One of our concerns is that these lorries turning in there will be exceedingly problematic. Have you made any arrangements for these lorries to cross in this red route and the main traffic route and will there be any provisions made there?

  (Mr Berryman) We have not got to that level of detail yet. This is something we will have to resolve with the local authority, but in fact this is the route that the local authority think is the most manageable of the potential ones to get into this area.

  4931. So at what stage will that be done? In order to get into this area with these lorries that is a key entry point. It will cause traffic jams. This is one of our main problems, that we are concerned about the traffic down that very narrow road and its effects on the Whitechapel Road. The other one that I wanted to ask about was in fact this junction here (indicating). You said that it is impossible to get lorries going north and round into Buxton Street, but have you got proof that you can get lorries in the other direction?

   (Mr Berryman) We have.

  4932. So you will not mind us coming with one of my colleagues on another day and showing you that we have proof that you cannot get your soil lorries round that corner?

   (Mr Berryman) We will have to ban parking on this side of the street here (indicating).

  4933. It is not the parking; it is the narrowness of the junction onto this road here (indicating) which, of course, is where all the schoolchildren come when they are coming down here and off here (indicating) to these two schools here (indicating). Our evidence is that you cannot get one of these very large soil lorries round that corner.

   (Mr Berryman) We have done a swept path analysis of the kinds of vehicles that we would be using for this work and we have satisfied ourselves and the local authority that we can do that.

  4934. I hope the Committee will not mind if we came back on that with one of our other colleagues because we have evidence that you cannot. We feel that you cannot.

  4935. LORD BROOKE OF ALVETHORPE: Going back to our visit, Mr Berryman, I think I suggested that perhaps there might be some merit in considering whether or not there should be some additional crash barriers around the streets round there where they were very narrow. Could I suggest that maybe this is a topic that would be worthy of pursuit with the Community Liaison Panel?

   (Mr Berryman) It would be worth very worthwhile, my Lord, yes. As I said in relation to my Lord Chairman's comments, that is exactly what we proposed the Panel should be used for.

  4936. LORD BROOKE OF ALVETHORPE: I wonder if the witness would like to take up the opportunity.

  4937. MS JORDAN: I am terribly sorry. Because I am deaf I find it really difficult sometimes.

  4938. LORD BROOKE OF ALVETHORPE: I am suggesting that these are topics that maybe the Community Liaison Panel ought to be in discussions with.

  4939. MS JORDAN: I think it is a topic that really needs to be determined now rather than a lorry arriving at that corner and discovering it cannot get round.