2560. MR SAUNDERSON: Yes, from that.

  2561. CHAIRMAN: And also adjudicate upon costs?

  2562. MR SAUNDERSON: Yes, cost. I have to say, I do not think it is a very difficult thing. Jones Lang will supply the number of hours they have worked and they have agreed the hourly rate.

  2563. CHAIRMAN: If we are going to be asked to step into the shoes of the Lands Tribunal, we have got to do it properly, have we not?

  2564. MR SAUNDERSON: I would not want to do anything other than what you say, Sir, but I have to take it back one step to the overview. I have been sitting on an asset frozen for 17 years and I would like you to order them to pay an amount of money now that Jones Lang have suggested. In some respects that may be rough justice to both sides but it answers the—

  2565. CHAIRMAN: I think it is also unlawful. I do not think we have got the powers to do it, so it would be very difficult for us. In order that we should do not even rough justice, but any justice at all, we would have to have evidence. Are you proposing to call evidence?

  2566. MR SAUNDERSON: I would be most happy to call evidence, yes.

  2567. CHAIRMAN: About all the things I have been talking about?

  2568. MR SAUNDERSON: Absolutely. I do not see a problem on the area or the fees, they are very straightforward. I do not think there is a dispute particularly between Crossrail and ourselves and I think Ms Lieven even said she has not got a dispute on the fees, so she has already agreed.

  2569. CHAIRMAN: I am delighted to hear that but there does seem to be a dispute about price.

  2570. BARONESS FOOKES: Could I ask you, Mr Saunderson, why you have not made application to the Lands Tribunal which seems, to a layman like myself, the obvious course of action?

  2571. MR SAUNDERSON: Thank you, yes. I was informed by Jones Lang that it would be more than a year before a hearing date was given, so that was the first reason, that fixing a valuation date more than a year ahead, it would be a lottery as to whether the market was lower or higher. It is very hard to say, "Yes, I'm going to say March 2009, I want the valuation of that property", which is what I would be doing if I referred it to the Lands Tribunal, so there was a long period of time before the Lands Tribunal, much longer than had been referred to by Ms Lieven just now, over 12 months to get a hearing.

  2572. Secondly, I understand the costs would be substantial, much higher than has been indicated to your Lordships and, again, we have had this rather difficult period of Ms Lieven making representations, as she did to the House of Commons Committee, saying, "Oh, yes, I'l pay costs", and then we come along with the Bill and they say "No, we won't not pay". I am reluctant to incur an open-ended commitment to fund what is, in effect, like a legal case more than a year away with substantial work required by—

  2573. CHAIRMAN: That is what the Lands Tribunal was set up to assess as part of the general overall solution to the problem. If you have had to incur extra costs, it is done according to a scale and the Lands Tribunal can order the costs to be paid.

  2574. MR SAUNDERSON: Yes, well Jones Lang have been working for 15 months without payment and I would be surprised if they want to work for another 12 to 15 months without payment. That is the problem of your Ladyship's question. It sounds easy and Ms Lieven says it is very easy, the fact is it actually very difficult.

  2575. LORD SNAPE: With respect, Mr Saunderson, forgive me, Lady Fookes, but further to Lady Fookes' question, you have already heard from Counsel for the Promoters that they did not want to refer the matter to the Lands Tribunal and I paraphrase what Ms Lieven said, "want to appear as to be bullying you". If they refer the matter to the Lands Tribunal, I gathered from what Ms Lieven said that they would meet those costs to which you object and I cannot quite see why you are not prepared to have a valuation based on a hearing in six, nine or 12 months hence, but you are happy evidently for this Committee to decide a valuation on today's prices. There is some inconsistency there, I put it to you.

  2576. MR SAUNDERSON: I do not think it is inconsistent at all. How would the costs be funded from here until 15 months' time?

  2577. LORD SNAPE: I think we heard from Ms Lieven earlier on that it is only fair that if the Promoter refers the matter to the Tribunal, they would meet some of the costs? Perhaps I can catch her attention so she could confirm that.

  2578. MS LIEVEN: I am so sorry my Lord.

  2579. MR SAUNDERSON: Perhaps they would give an undertaking to you that they will pay quarterly accounts to Jones Lang—