2460. CHAIRMAN: As would the Lands Tribunal.

  2461. MS LIEVEN: Absolutely.

  2462. CHAIRMAN: We would have to know on what date the valuation is to be based.

  2463. MS LIEVEN: Yes.

  2464. CHAIRMAN: And we would have to go into the question of fees in some considerable detail.

  2465. MS LIEVEN: Yes. And there is another matter you would have to go into, which is the other area of dispute is the amount of net lettable space that would be available in this assumed building, and that goes into planning evidence as to what planning permission would be likely to be granted absent Crossrail. To put it very crudely for the Committee: is it likely that the City, who are the planning authority there, would grant a five storey building or a twenty storey building.

  2466. CHAIRMAN: There is a perfectly good procedure for this, is there not, Ms Lieven, you could get a certificate of alternative development from the City Council, could you not?

  2467. MS LIEVEN: Yes.

  2468. CHAIRMAN: Is there one?

  2469. MS LIEVEN: There is not at the present time, no.

  2470. CHAIRMAN: That would solve that problem.

  2471. MS LIEVEN: What I am trying to say to the Committee is all these are classic problems that the Lands Tribunal has to grapple with in deciding a valuation if a matter is referred to it and, with great respect to this Committee, the Lands Tribunal is a much more appropriate body to make that determination because it has the relevant expertise and it is set up to hear precisely that type of evidence in that type of dispute.

  2472. CHAIRMAN: And it is also the statutory body required to do so.

  2473. MS LIEVEN: Absolutely, my Lord.

  2474. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: I presume you could come to an out of Lands Tribunal settlement because figures are being exchanged?

  2475. MS LIEVEN: Yes.

  2476. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: What you are saying to us is if you fail to agree between you in what I would paraphrase as an out of court settlement the matter would then be referred to the Lands Tribunal.

  2477. MS LIEVEN: It goes a little further than that, my Lord, because the matter could be referred to the Lands Tribunal now and, indeed, we have written to Mr Saunderson and Jones Lang, or emailed them, saying, "Let's just refer this to the Lands Tribunal". Because we are so far apart but also because of Mr Saunderson's concern to get the money, it seemed to us the most sensible thing was refer it to the Lands Tribunal. That does not stop the parties negotiating behind the scenes. There are always delays in litigation and while it is waiting to get on at the Lands Tribunal at least it has gone and got in the queue. We have suggested that and for reasons I do not know so far that suggestion has not been taken up.

  2478. LORD SNAPE: One of the points Mr Saunderson made was that he would be involved in considerable extra expense in going to the Lands Tribunal. As a layman, my Lord Chairman, forgive me for asking this particular question, but what sort of expense are we talking about for someone like Mr Saunderson to take a case like this to the Lands Tribunal? Are we talking hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of pounds?

  2479. MS LIEVEN: I do not think there is an easy answer to that, my Lord, because, as always, with any kind of litigation it terribly much depends who you get and how long it goes on. We are certainly not talking about hundreds of thousands of pounds. Let me check with Mr Mould who is more experienced in the Lands Tribunal. My Lord, first of all, Mr Mould and I think that you would probably be talking about something in the region of £20,000, perhaps £30,000 in fees, but the critical point to bear in mind is, as I said in the House of Commons, we will pay reasonable fees, it is just we will not pay them in advance. There is no provision in the statute for advance payment of fees and, as I understand it, it is not normally done. I do not know whether it is ever done but it is certainly not normally done. There is no issue, we will pay the fees, but we are not going to write a blank cheque for whatever surveyors in advance.