2325. CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon. Mr Saunderson, the system we have adopted is that for the beginning of a Petition I would ask the Promoters very briefly to explain to us what the problem is factually, then it is over to you, you explain what it is in any terms you like, you call witnesses and they can be cross-examined and then the Promoters will do the same the other way around. They will have a chance to make comments on the Petition and you have the last say, is that all right?

  2326. MR SAUNDERSON: Yes. Thank you.

  2327. MS LIEVEN: Ms Lieven. Thank you, my Lords. Just before I turn to Mr Sanderson's Petition, I have been asked to tell your Lordships about the Register of Undertakings and Assurances, which I hope your Lordships now all have copies of.

  2328. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.

  2329. MS LIEVEN: Not at all. This afternoon we are dealing with the Petition of Mr Saunderson and I have just one witness to call on this who is Mr Smith who you will remember gave the compensation teach-in a couple of weeks ago. If we could have Exhibit 1 up, please.[1] Mr Saunderson is the part-owner of a property called 10 Hayne Street, which I am indicating on the board. This is a property which falls within the area of Farringdon East ticket hall, so to try to locate the Committee, this is Smithfield Market (indicating) which the Committee is likely to hear more about in the future. This is Barbican Station on the LUL Circle Line and over here we have the Barbican (indicating). The underground station which some of the Committee will be familiar with is Farringdon, which is over here on Cowcross Street just off Farringdon Road. Because the Committee will remember Crossrail stations are very long and the trains are very long, Farringdon, like the other Central London stations, has two ticket halls, Farringdon West ticket hall, which is right next to the existing LUL Farringdon Hall, and a completely new ticket hall at Farringdon East, which is in the block of Lindsay Street to the west, Long Lane to the south and Hayne Street, which is this narrow little street which goes up here (indicating). 10 Hayne Street is right next to the tracks. These tracks here that I am indicating are the LUL tracks and the Committee may recollect that Thameslink also at the moment comes down from Farringdon and has a spine that runs through Barbican into Moorgate.

  2330. That locates the property. Mr Saunderson has owned 10 Hayne Street back since 1982, and at one time with 10 Hayne Street—I need to give the Committee a little bit of the background to this because it is complicated and is likely to be raised by Mr Saunderson—Mr Saunderson was a director of a company called Saunderson Holdings Limited which owned a much larger number of properties in this location. If we can put up 002, please.[2] This shows the block of properties, 10 Hayne Street owned by Mr Saunderson and the other properties outlined in red owned by Saunderson Holdings Limited, SHL. Mr Saunderson and the company, as we understood it, hoped and intended to develop the entire site. The properties were bought in the mid to late 1980s in mass and planning permission was sought for a comprehensive redevelopment in this area.

  2331. I should say, the planning permission had been granted on 10 Hayne Street for an office redevelopment in 1984 and that was renewed in 1990.

  2332. CHAIRMAN: Is it still valid?

  2333. MS LIEVEN: No, my Lord, it is not for reasons which I am about to come to. Soon after Mr Saunderson and the company had bought all these companies two things happened and I am not putting them in order, I am going to explain both of them to the Committee. LUL and British Rail promoted the original Crossrail scheme, which also involved a ticket hall at Lindsey Street, Hayne Street property in this block. The entire area covered by SHL and the Hayne Street properties were safeguarded in 1990 for the original Crossrail scheme for the East Farringdon ticket hall. The position becomes a tiny bit complicated because in 1991, as I understand it, the schemes changed slightly and the Long Lane properties were excluded from the safeguarding, but I think that probably does not matter very much. This is the first thing that happened, the original Crossrail scheme, albeit promoted by different parties, came along at Farringdon East. The other thing that happened before the safeguarding was the major property recession of the very early 90s which went on through much of it to the mid-90s. The Committee will be well aware that what that did was massively decrease the value of commercial property in London and also made locations such as this, which is what would be called in a market a city fridge location, very difficult to redevelop. Mr Smith can give evidence on that later.

  2334. The combination of those factors meant that the site as a whole very significantly fell in value. Planning permission was not achieved for the entirety of the site because of the safeguarding order and then, of course, there was a Bill in Parliament which ultimately did not get Royal Assent, so there was no planning permission for the majority of the site. The company SHL got into difficulties. Mr Saunderson can tell you more about that if he wishes and ultimately the properties were sold, other than 10 Hayne Street, from 1996 by receivers at a much reduced value from what they were bought for, let alone the value that Mr Saunderson thought they would have had at the height of the market. Since the early 90s Mr Saunderson has had a long argument that it is the Crossrail project, in one of its guises, which led to his losses.

  2335. My lords, I have gone through all that because it is a matter which arises in Mr Saunderson's exhibits which he may want to raise with you but, in my submission, none of that has anything to do with this Committee, it is all very much in the past and it is not the scheme, the Bill, which is before your Lordships now.

  2336. Turning to 10 Hayne Street, which is really the subject of today's proceedings. Can we go on to the photograph of 10 Hayne Street, which is number 004.[3] 10 Hayne Street is a vacant plot, the building has long since been demolished. Its only use at the moment is as a car park. Mr Saunderson continued to own 10 Hayne Street, as I said. He petitioned the House of Commons in respect of it and appeared in October 2006.

  2337. The main issue before the House of Commons was the question of whether or not we would accept a blight notice on 10 Hayne Street if served by Mr Saunderson. At that stage no blight notice had been served. We accepted in front of the Commons that as long as Mr Saunderson served the blight notice and could show six months' occupation of the car park, which, as I explained to the House of Commons, was not an onerous requirement because it is only a car park, he did not have to be living in it, then we would accept a blight notice. In fact, he served a blight notice on 18 December 2006 and on 16 February 2007 we accepted the blight notice.

  2338. Since then, there have been discussions over the valuation between ourselves, various agents and Mr Saunderson's agents and those discussions are still going on and there is a dispute about the level of valuation, but we have made it quite clear that we are very happy for the matter to be referred to the Lands Tribunal and it is open under the Act for Mr Saunderson to refer it to Lands Tribunal at any stage if he wants to in order to determine the valuation amount so that he can gain his compensation. In my submission, that is not in any sense a matter for this Committee. There is an independent specialist adjudicative body in the Lands Tribunal who are there to determine levels of compensation including compensation for this.

  2339. CHAIRMAN: There is a dispute about fees too, is there not?

2   Crossrail Ref: P20, Location of 2 Lindsey Street, 20-23 Long Lane, 8-10 Hayne Street and 3 Hayne Street (LONDLB-38_04-002) Back

3   Crossrail Ref: P20, View of 10 Hayne Street (LONDLB-38_04-004) Back