Lords Hansard text for 7 Jul 200807 July 2008 (pt 0009)

Hansard

6.33 pm

Clause 6 [Powers for regeneration, development or effective use of land]:

[Amendment No. 9 not moved.]

Earl Cathcart moved Amendment No. 10:

After Clause 8, insert the following new Clause—

“Flood assessment

Before exercising its powers under sections 5 to 8, the HCA shall—

(a) assess fully the risk of flooding to any new development;(b) assess fully the impact of any new development on downstream risks;(c) ensure that any new development is flood resilient and resistant.”

The noble Earl said: My Lords, the amendment requires the HCA to assess the risk of flooding to any new development and the impact that any new development may have on downstream risks. In addition, where there is a risk of flooding for any new development, the HCA must ensure that it is flood-resilient and resistant.

Since the Bill was drafted at the end of last year, we have had not only the interim Pitt review on flooding but the final Pitt report. Pitt reported to Defra, but it seems to me that in the interests of joined-up thinking there should be some reference to flooding in the Bill. There were nearly 400 government amendments to the Bill during its passage through the other place, and there must be about 300 government amendments so far in this House. Although I looked through the raft of government amendments produced on Report—more than 150—I could find no reference to flooding. I find that surprising.

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It seems to me to be common sense that if we are going to build 3 million new homes during the next 12 years, the Bill should require the HCA to carry out some sort of flood assessment before deciding where and how to build new developments, given that a proportion of the total will undoubtedly be built in areas at risk of flooding. Pitt devotes 100 pages—section 3—to improve planning and reduce the risk of flooding and its impact, which has a direct bearing on the work to be carried out by the HCA. It seems only sensible to include a provision devoted to that in the Bill. We had hoped that it would be a government amendment.

The amendment comes in three parts. First, it requires that the HCA shall,

Secondly, it requires that the HCA,

Thirdly, where any new development takes place where there is a risk of flooding, the HCA is required to ensure that the design of the development is flood-resilient and resistant.

That third part recognises that a proportion of all future developments may well be on flood plains, but, where that is the case, although there is a risk of flooding, it is important that development is carried out in such a way that it increases the resilience and resistance to flooding and thus reduces the damage from it, should it occur.

In response to the debate on the subject in Committee, the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, said that the Environment Agency worked closely with local authorities, which must do the flood assessment with it, and that that cannot be the job of the HCA. I beg to differ: it is very much the job of the HCA to carry out flood assessment when deciding on future developments. For example, the Bill gives specific powers for the HCA to become a local planning authority. In such an instance, it will be the HCA, not the local authority, who will have to work closely with the Environment Agency in assessing flood risks.

In one year alone, 21 major planning applications were approved by local authorities against the Environment Agency's advice. It is only common sense that the HCA should be aware of and be required to make flood assessments before coming to any decisions on future developments. I beg to move.

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, I shall be extremely brief. I had the pleasure and privilege of going to the conference arranged by the Association of British Insurers. I am not sure whether either of the Ministers present were there on that occasion, but the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, was sitting immediately in front of me, for which I gave him extremely good marks and with whom I exchanged an occasional word.

Anyone who was there would have been aware of the nature of the unhappiness, not with God or the flooding arrangements, but with the degree of human suffering that occurs as a consequence of flooding. I simply say to the government Front Bench that, were there not to be a sympathetic response to the amendment

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moved by my noble friend Lord Cathcart, a lot of people at that conference would wonder whether the Government were as serious as they suggested.

Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, at the previous stage, my noble friend Lord Greaves said that the important words were “resilient” and “resistant”. That is right. It seems that, increasingly, we will have to plan to adapt to flooding and be resilient to it because it cannot be wholly avoided.

I would say that the HCA’s work on flooding would need to go rather wider than I read the amendment. It now seems to be generally accepted that it is important, when we are talking about flooding from rivers, to allow—to use layman’s terms—for a river to expand and to leave space for that. That is also the case when laying permeable hard surfaces in a development. I distinguish between the two because, in a sense, this is a development that is not a development. That is the point.

Moreover—this is very much an urban reaction—this is not only about flooding as we know it but about the lack of capacity in our sewerage systems to deal particularly with the rather different monsoon-type weather that we get now, with its very heavy bursts of rain rather than the more gentle sort that fills up the aquifers and keeps us all happy through every season. This is hugely important. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, who looks as though he is about to respond, will tell us that the HCA must carry out these barrier assessments as well as lots of other things, but an acknowledgment of it all would certainly be appropriate.

Baroness Ford: My Lords, simply and briefly, when the HCA brings forward developments, it will obviously have to go through the planning system and then engage as part of the statutory consultation process where appropriate. In the exceptional circumstances in which it had to use its own planning powers, it would still be doing so within the overall framework of the Town and Country Planning Acts and would have to go through exactly the same process, so the fact that it was using those powers in exceptional circumstances would not exempt it—far from it—from having to go through the statutory consultation with the Environment Agency.

In addition, I reassure noble Lords that, following the flooding of New Orleans two or three years ago, the board of English Partnerships immediately instructed officials to review all our land holdings and carry out a detailed flood risk assessment, not because we needed to statutorily but because we felt that it was correct in the circumstances to ensure that we fully understood the risks associated with the land holdings that we were stewarding on behalf of government. If we had needed to take action at that time, we would most certainly have done so.

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the amendment is almost the same as the one that noble Lords opposite tabled in Committee. I know that the noble Earl will be a little disappointed, but my response in general

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will be pretty much the same as the one that we gave then. That is not because I do not recognise the importance of the issues. I certainly acknowledge the real distress that flooding has caused people in many communities in the past few years when places have become susceptible to it. The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, valuably reminded us of that. Some people are still in straitened circumstances as a product of some of the floods last year, so we are all very conscious of these issues. We should be reassured by the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Ford, who obviously acted quickly following the New Orleans floods to ensure that her own organisation at least tried to analyse and understand the essential impacts within the context of our own housing.

The amendment would require the Homes and Communities Agency, prior to undertaking any activities in relation to land, regeneration, development or infrastructure, to carry out various assessments of flood risks. No one can dispute the importance of proper consideration of flood prevention and reduction measures. As the noble Baroness, Lady Ford, said, that work continues and has renewed importance. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, echoed that. Last summer’s events vividly reminded us of that and brought the point home.

6.45 pm

The amendment seeks to take the issue of flooding outside the normal planning and development control process. I question whether there is wisdom to that. The noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, referred to the HCA as a planning authority, but we need to remind ourselves that it is such an authority only in rare and exceptional circumstances. It would not be sound to put planning within its remit. The proper place for considerations such as these is within the planning regime. We will have the opportunity to debate this when the Planning Bill comes to your Lordships’ House later this month.

Indeed, guidance now states that it is obligatory to consult the Environment Agency on planning applications in flood risk areas, and the Government will intervene where councils ignore the agency’s advice on major developments. The Environment Agency is the body that must work with local authorities, which must carry out flood risk assessments. That is not the proper job of the HCA; it is not within its realm of competence. The amendment would in a sense transport that competence into the HCA, but that is not its primary purpose. The planning system already provides for what the amendment sets out. Noble Lords will remember that we have always maintained that the HCA will be subject to the planning regime in the same way in which any other body is.

More generally, the noble Earl referred to the Pitt review. We welcome the review, which will make a significant contribution to managing future flood risks in England and Wales. It is for government properly to consider the recommendations in full, as the Secretary of State for the Environment made clear in his Statement to the House. To that effect, a full implementation plan will be published this autumn. It is right that we consider the review’s recommendations seriously and respond fully in the autumn rather than give what

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some might consider to be a knee-jerk response to proposed amendments to the Bill, although I do not deny the good spirit in which the amendment has been tabled.

We are, as ever, happy to have further discussions with noble Lords opposite because this is a technical issue as much as a human one. There are technical issues to be considered, but putting this into the Bill, as the noble Earl suggests, is not the right way to address the problems that have arisen in the past few years. There will always be a case for some building on flood plains. I think that some 10 per cent of all developments are built on flood-plain areas. It is important that proper measures of resilience are put in place, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, made clear, to ensure that residents who occupy those homes are provided with proper protection.

I am grateful to the noble Earl for his amendment, but it is not the right way in which to approach the issue. I believe that we have got right the planning context of the issue. We are happy to facilitate discussions in more detail on the Pitt review with those who are leading for the Opposition, but we should not amend the Bill in the way in which noble Lords opposite have suggested. The amendment would not add anything, and could in some ways question the way in which the planning regime should properly work, which would be very unwise.

Earl Cathcart: My Lords, the noble Lord says that the amendment would require the HCA to carry out flood assessments for any development. That is exactly what it would require the HCA to do. All the amendment says is that the HCA must,

We hope that that is already done, but the noble Lord should try telling that to the 5,000 people who still cannot get back into their houses.

The amendment then says that the HCA must,

The Bill is in front of us. The aim is to build 3 million new houses by 2020. There is nothing in the Bill about flooding, which we are told will affect more of us as the years go by because of climate change. We know that a good percentage of these new homes will be built in flood risk areas on flood plains. There should be something in the Bill. The Minister also says that the Government will intervene when local authorities go against environmental advice. Flooding happened 21 times in one year, yet the developments continued. This is a very important issue. We are running out of good areas on which to build new housing and will rely more on flood plains because they are an easy option.

Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, the noble Earl’s amendment deals with new development, but he is speaking very much about the existing situation. No one would dispute the problems that he has described, but can he marry that to his amendment?

Earl Cathcart: My Lords, in the past, we have had problems with flooding and we are told by everyone that they will not go away. The more we build, the

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more flooding problems we will have. This Bill deals with 3 million new homes in England. That is how the past and future marry. We will be building a great deal more houses and there is nothing in this Bill on flooding and flood assessments. I am slightly reassured that the Minister, or perhaps it was the noble Baroness, Lady Ford, said that if the HCA takes over any planning it will be required to do flood assessments in the normal course of events. It would have to do flood assessments anyway because that is what the planner is required to do.

I am disappointed that the Minister is unable to accept this amendment, but I beg leave to withdraw it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 9 [Acquisition of land]:

Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendment No. 11:

Clause 9, page 4, line 30, leave out from ““common”” to end of line 33 and insert “has the meaning given by section 19(4) of the Acquisition of Land Act 1981 (c. 67),”

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Bovine TB

6.53 pm

The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Rooker): My Lords, with permission, I will repeat a Statement made in the other place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. The Statement is as follows:

“Mr Speaker, I wish to make a Statement about the Government’s plans for tackling bovine TB in England. In doing so, I thank the EFRA Select Committee both for its comprehensive and thoughtful report and for allowing me additional time to respond to it, which I have now done. I am also grateful to Professor Bourne and the members of the Independent Scientific Group for their thorough scientific study.

“Bovine TB is not a new problem. For over 70 years, successive Governments have implemented cattle controls based on surveillance, testing and slaughter of reactors. These have been designed to protect public health, to reduce the economic impact of the disease on farmers and, more recently, to comply with our obligations under European legislation.

“By the mid-1970s, the incidence of TB in cattle had reached an all-time low. However, since the 1980s, disease incidence has increased again, with a significant rise following the 2001 foot and mouth epidemic. Last year, nearly 3,200 new TB incidents were recorded and 18,543 reactor cattle were slaughtered in England.

“Bovine TB is a serious problem, particularly in the south-west and the Midlands. Although over 90 per cent of herds are TB free at any one time and some significant cattle farming areas are largely without the disease, I know from listening to farmers living with it just how difficult it is. For those who are most seriously affected, the economic and human consequences are simply devastating. That is why we should take the right decisions to help.

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