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I am conscious of wearying the House, but I have come to the last amendments in this important group. Amendments Nos. 193 and 196 propose that any designation order should be made by affirmative resolution. The noble Baroness has argued that the very exceptional nature of these powers suggests that they should be the most powerful instrument available for scrutiny. I am not entirely persuaded by the argument, but I am inclined to take it away in the context of today’s debate and what other noble Lords have said around the Chamber about the designated powers.
I know that I have spoken for a very long time, but I hope that I have answered most points that were raised. I do not think that I have anything else to say on any of these amendments.
Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have shown such perception and care about these provisions. If noble Lords will bear with me, I shall deal with a few points in the order of my notes rather than the order of importance. On Amendment No. 9, clearly I did not make myself clear enough to the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith. I am seeking to keep people as consultants in the public sector, not to the use the HCA as a training ground. I do not intend to push this matter further. I also am very grateful to the noble Viscount. To the noble Baroness, Lady Ford, I say that I do not dispute that there could be benign intent. Noble Lords in this Chamber are angels, but I cannot think of an amendment which says that this will apply only when everyone’s intentions are benign.
The Milton Keynes example has been prayed in aid frequently because it is the only example available, but it is not one that can be applied directly to all the circumstances. It was a partnership which the local authority was happy to join; it was not an imposition and, indeed, it was an exception. Moreover, I think that my amendments are consistent with the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Ford, even though she said that she did not agree with them.
On Amendment No. 4, I understand why the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, would like to see these important notions spelt out, but they are more about the how than the what, and this clause is about the what. The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, once paid me the compliment of saying that I was not a lawyer—he meant that I was not a barrister—but I have a lawyer’s mind, which sees things progressing in sequence in the
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I do not want to take too much time. I agree that the protocol with the local government world through the LGA is important, but it does not address the basic premise of whether it is right philosophically for an agency to take these planning powers. The comment that, in the past, urban development corporations have had difficulties when plans are not up to the mark should be answered by the HCA’s ability, along with everyone else, to make representations during the construction of development plans and their modifications.
The noble Baroness has offered to consider so many of my amendments that it would not be appropriate for me to seek to take them further today. Although time is quite short, I hope that there will be an opportunity for us to discuss what the Government might bring forward, and I do not give any undertakings about not dividing the House in a week’s time. A discussion about how we take these notions forward could cover one or two of the points that at this stage the noble Baroness has rejected. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Andrews moved Amendment No. 3:
“(2) Any such committee may delegate any function conferred on it to any sub-committee of the committee or to any staff of the HCA.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Dixon-Smith moved Amendment No. 5:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 5 and 6 are very simple. The clause deals with the quality and supply of housing, and states at line 11 on page 1,
We thought to bring back again the issue of accessibility. One tends to think of accessibility as something achieved on foot, by bicycle or in a car, but of course the really significant issue here is access for people who are handicapped. Regrettably, this is a very difficult issue and it is vital to those affected by it. Amendment No. 6 deals with inclusiveness. If the amendment were agreed to, line 3 on page 2 of the Bill would read,
Inclusiveness would include the handicapped and all aspects of the community, particularly the disadvantaged.
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These are important qualifications; there is no doubt about that. I suspect that the Minister will say, “Of course we are going to do that”. All too often, despite the intent generally being there, this subject gets forgotten about. This is a problem because it affects a relatively limited section of the community. It is easier to acknowledge it in the breach than it is to do so in fact.
We return, to a degree, to the question of housing design, on which the Minister has conceded. Inclusiveness and access become important particularly when redeveloping areas of the country, and accessibility in particular is very expensive if you are trying to do something with existing housing. It is perfectly easy with regard to new development but if the need is not clearly driven into the minds of redevelopers from the start, it is possible that, simply on the grounds of economy, it will not be implemented, however good the intention.
These two very small amendments would improve that provision in the Bill. I beg to move.
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Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with the spirit of the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, and the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart. At Second Reading, I drew attention—at col. 83 of Hansard on 28 April—to some highlights of briefing that had been provided to certainly a number of us and perhaps to all of us by RADAR, Care and Repair England and the Habinteg Housing Association pointing out some pretty shameful facts about the inaccessibility of so much housing and the entirely unsatisfactory conditions in which too many disabled people are still expected to live.
I know that the Government are very serious in their intentions to do very much better in this regard. They have, of course, made their commitment that by 2011 all public housing will be built to lifetime home standards. I hope that my noble friend may be able to say something about the Government’s intentions in regard to other housing—not public housing but housing that is provided privately on the commercial market, although that may be outside the direct remit of the Homes and Communities Agency and this Bill. If she did say something, the House would appreciate that. She may also reasonably say—I do not know—that disability discrimination legislation will enable us cumulatively to make an impact on this problem. As the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, suggested, accessibility is a very important subset of the broader principle of good design, which we are about to debate. I endorse the spirit in which the noble Lord has tabled and moved the amendment. I look forward to a constructive response from the Minister.
Lord Best: My Lords, I also support the amendment. I was not sure how important it was until I had lunch earlier today with people from the house-building industry. Some of them said that, in these straitened times, when several house builders are going to the wall and difficulties prevail, we will have to rein in some of the regulation that has cluttered the housing system. In particular, they drew attention to the fact that the accessibility standards of lifetime homes were
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Accessibility is a key issue. We must make all homes in the future accessible not only to people with disabilities but to all kinds of families in all stages of life. Making the home an easier place to live in is a key part of design which adds little to the cost of each home, although it does add something. This essential ingredient could now be jeopardised by the straitened times in which the house-building industry finds itself. Strengthening the arm of the Homes and Communities Agency to resist any diminution in the existing strength of feeling for greater accessibility would be of great significance. Suddenly I have realised the importance of the amendment and I give it my heartiest support.
Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I associate these Benches with all the previous remarks. I hope the Minister will assure the House that her Amendment No. 7, which adds the objective of good design, not only covers aesthetics, which are very important, but extends to all the other elements of design, including accessibility.
Baroness Andrews: My Lords, it is obvious that the House is united in the view that this is an issue of serious importance. It is certainly close to my heart. I argued in Committee that we have an ageing population. By definition, that means that we will have more people living longer with greater disabilities and we have to accommodate and plan for that in the most positive and proactive way.
Two of the ways in which we conceive the HCA working will address this issue. First, the HCA already has the object to improve the supply and quality of housing in England with a view to meeting the needs of people living in England. It could not be much clearer than that. It certainly goes wide enough to account for issues of accessibility. How can we interpret the notion of need unless we think about people whose needs are different and have to be met? Secondly, design includes matters such as accessibility. One of my particular preoccupations has been that we tend to think of accessible housing and housing for disabled people as having no design function, whereas we should be piloting the highest standards of design for people who have difficulty in accessing their homes, furniture and so on. So, yes, design includes accessibility.
The HCA will be focused on ensuring that the various needs of a diverse community are catered for by providing housing of different tenors and types, now and in the future. That means more accessible housing and more family housing; it means sustainable housing. Another thing about the way the HCA will work is that, like the Housing Corporation, it will respond to what local authorities tell it are their local needs. We have a cross-government public service agreement, which identifies four vulnerable groups in the community who have particular needs, not least
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We have ways and means of meeting needs, but I understand what the noble Lord has said. I am reluctant to single out a strand of housing that would entail a specific object being placed on the agency, no matter how much we all think it is important; it is not entirely wise to emphasise one particular type of housing in primary legislation. The Bill is trying to enable the HCA to meet all its challenges with sufficient flexibility.
The noble Lord, Lord Best, has raised the issue of lifetime homes. He knows how committed he and I are to making that a reality in the timescales that we have given. We have made a commitment that by 2011 all public sector-funded homes will be developed as lifetime homes, and we will work with the industry to ensure that all homes are built to that standard by 2013.
I know that the housing market is in difficult times. Frankly, though, one of the arguments I would put to the house-builders is that there is a market for homes for elderly people, who have proportionally far more wealth than they have had before, with the equity in their existing homes, but who do not move home because choices are not available to them. I say to those house-builders: think about that market, and about the social homes you could build that would appeal to people who at the moment are stuck in larger, inappropriate houses. I do not buy the argument that this is not an economic benefit to house-builders themselves.
Having said that, I will take the argument away and think some more about it. I cannot promise to come back with a solution at Third Reading, but I have heard what the House has said. I will think about whether there is some way that we can accommodate the principle.
I cannot say the same for inclusive housing, I am afraid, because it raises other major issues—not least that the HCA will simply not be doing its job if it is not conscious of the need to build inclusive communities, and that means communities that work. Communities work only if they offer a home and an environment to people who have a diverse variety of needs, such as we all know our society contains. It will be a requirement upon the HCA to succeed in doing that, and it will work closely with local authorities to achieve it. We all want to see confident and cohesive communities. The HCA will be subject to appropriate equality duties as well, and it will have to comply with the DDA.
The other problem I have with the term “inclusive” is that it can mean a lot of very different things. It would be a challenge, to say the least, to arrive at a definition that satisfied everyone. I hope that noble Lords will accept that I am doing my best and listening closely to what they are saying about accessible homes, but I cannot promise to take the “inclusive” amendment away.
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Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, I appreciate what my noble friend has just said, but she placed her emphasis on the Government’s intentions with regard to the provision of new housing. Will she say a little more about the Government’s thinking about the upgrading of existing homes? I understand that when the Government have fulfilled their pledge of increasing disabled facilities grants by 31 per cent, they will still be spending only £166 million on those grants. That does not take us very far, given the scale of the problem—particularly if, as I understand it, the concomitant duty on local authorities to provide funding is to be relaxed. The HCA will have important responsibilities with regard to regeneration, and perhaps therefore to the upgrading of existing houses. Will the Minister say what powers and resources it will be able to use for that purpose?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I do not like to interrupt noble Lords when they are in full flow, but I ought to draw attention to paragraph 7.134 of the Companion, which governs how we respond on Report. We should not really make further interventions once the Minister has sat down. Questions should be asked only for elucidation.
Baroness Andrews: My Lords, I am very happy to write to my noble friend and will certainly answer his questions with pleasure.
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Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, I was very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, when he first intervened; the second time, I regret to say that it caused my eyebrows to twitch. Anyway, it was good to have his support and to know that we also have the support of RADAR. I was very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Best, for his remarks on lifetime homes, particularly regarding the immediate pressure, which appears to be coming from the industry, to relax our standards for what is, as I think we all hope and pray, no more than a relatively short-term difficulty. I am sure we would all agree that, however long this problem in the housing market lasts, it will be too long. Even if it goes on longer than any of us would like, I see no reason why we should not continue to aim to set very high standards, particularly in this area. As the Minister said, so many people now live in a handicapped way in homes that are simply unsuitable because there is no way for them to go anywhere else.
I am aware that lifetime homes will be taken care of, when it comes to building new homes, in a relatively short timescale. But if we do not keep this in our mind whenever renovations and redevelopment of existing housing are undertaken, we will miss a golden opportunity and might inadvertently condemn some people to problems which they would rather avoid. After all, it is not a question of making every door in a house wheelchair-accessible, but of making the house and perhaps the ground floor wheelchair-accessible, if not upstairs. This is not an unreasonable ambition.
I am most grateful to the Minister for what she had to say. I accept the problem of emphasising only one aspect, but if you do not continue to mention the
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Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Andrews moved Amendment No. 7:
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I am delighted to bring forward this amendment. We have spoken about design during the passage of the Bill; we had excellent debates on it on Second Reading and in Committee. This amendment is in response to the argument that has commanded support across the House. It is a small but significant amendment which puts good design at the heart of what the agency will be seeking to achieve and firmly in the right context.
There were some other suggestions from noble Lords about how design should best be addressed in the Bill. We resisted having a design champion on the board for some of the reasons I set out in Committee concerning the potential risks of placing responsibility in a single pair of hands or in cutting across the work of other bodies such as CABE. Nor have I taken the route suggested in Committee by my noble friend Lord Howarth to relate the concept of design to the design quality of housing. There is no problem with that approach in itself, but the effect would be to restrict references to design in the Bill to housing. In addition, the HCA may well be delivering various forms of infrastructure, community facilities, open spaces, or many other types of development, in all of which I hope design will be very important.
There were other proposals before us in Committee, and I have considered each of them. We have come to the conclusion that design is best addressed in the objects of the agency and in the context of sustainable development. That approach places design firmly at the heart of the agency’s approach, and deals with it in terms of sustainable development, which is the correct approach. By doing that, especially putting it in the objects of the agency, we recognise its importance. It also means that the powers available to the agency can be used for the purposes of good design or for purposes incidental to it. I am delighted to have heard that our design stakeholders, such as RIBA, have warmly welcomed this amendment.
Placing design in the context of sustainable development links the topic to planning policy statement 1, Delivering Sustainable Development, which already states that:
“Good design ensures attractive, usable, durable and adaptable places and is a key in achieving sustainable development”.
Surely, in that context, we want to capture design in this Bill and those are the principles that will underpin the development of sustainable communities where people want to live.
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