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On the other issues raised by my amendments, the Minister basically said he had no idea for how long we needed an initial period, which is what we are pretty used to in some of the responses on the personal accounts scheme. We might get tired of hearing that. On the removal of members and their remuneration, the Minister has repeated the fact that the Secretary of State wants to keep a hold on those things because it is a public body. We will think about that further, but for the moment I believe I have flagged up the fact that my serious concern is with the Government’s concept of what a chair of this organisation will do, which means they may go out and recruit the wrong kind of person. We shall find another way of exploring that on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Tunnicliffe: I beg to move that the House be now resumed. In moving the Motion, I suggest that the Committee stage begin again not before 8.35 pm.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
Business
Lord Bach: My Lords, we are about to debate a very important subject. The list contains many expert speakers with a variety of different viewpoints. Alas, we have only one hour. To be fair to everyone, I ask noble Lords to keep their contributions to two minutes. If the clock shows two, you have gone on too long.
Israel and Palestine: Negotiations
7.36 pm
Lord Turnberg asked Her Majesty’s Government what support they are giving to Israel and the Palestinian Authority in their peace negotiations.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am very grateful for the opportunity to open this debate. This is a very opportune moment for us to consider what roles the UK might play in the ever changing and confusing set of events being played out in the Middle East. I am sorry that the many noble Lords who have kindly put their names down to speak will have only two minutes, so I hope they will not waste too much time thanking me.
They say a week is a long time in politics; even a day seems a long time in the Middle East. On the one hand, we have cause for optimism in the discussions between Syria and Israel, brokered by Turkey; between Hamas and Israel, initiated by Egypt; between Hezbollah and Israel, brokered by Germany; and those between the Palestinian Authority and Hamas—a bewildering series of simultaneous initiatives. On the other hand, we have Hamas continuing to arm itself and maintaining its rhetoric of death and destruction for Israel; Syria
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All those have a bearing on how we consider the talks between Israel and the Palestinians and I will comment, rather briefly I am afraid, on some of them. First, the ceasefire between Hamas and Israel, brokered by Egypt, did not happen overnight. It must have taken many months of secret negotiation, but it is clear that this is a ceasefire and not a peace agreement. Many, in Israel at least, are quite unconvinced that it will last while Hamas remains committed to Israel's destruction. But let us be thankful for small mercies: the residents of Sderot can begin to emerge from their cellars as there is a lull in the perpetual rain of rockets to which they have been subjected for the past couple of years, and the civilians of Gaza can breathe more easily as Israel refrains from responding. Of course, this may be seen simply as a lull or as the beginning of a beginning of a process. Certainly when Israel withdrew from Gaza it was not to start a war but to start a peace.
Is there anything that the UK Government can usefully do to help Egypt in this endeavour? I ask the Minister whether we can offer support and perhaps technical assistance for the efforts to prevent the smuggling of arms from Egypt into Gaza and for the release of Corporal Shalit. Can we also take advantage of the extremely valuable role Egypt can play in the negotiations between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority? Palestinian unity would make it rather simpler for them and the Israelis to negotiate. Then there is Hezbollah; even there, indirect discussions brokered by Germany have seen some softening, with prisoner exchanges for Israeli soldiers—we still do not know if they are alive or dead—and even the Shebaa farms appear to be on the agenda.
However, the most significant talks of all are those sponsored by Turkey between Syria and Israel. Syria holds the key and vital opportunities must not be allowed to slip there: we in the UK can play an important role. Syria is closely allied with Iran in many ways, but while Iran is ideologically and theologically driven to destroy Israel, Syria is rather more pragmatic. President Assad is under pressure to improve the parlous economic difficulties his country faces. Neither his own position nor that of his minority ruling Alawi sect is entirely secure. He would gain considerable clout internally if he were to regain the Golan Heights. That is on the table, but would come at a price: a peace treaty with Israel, the cessation of support for terrorist groups in Lebanon and Gaza and a reduction in ties with Iran—a set of tall orders indeed.
The Golan alone is unlikely to be enough for Syria to accept Israel’s terms, yet Israel by itself has little else it could offer. That is where the international community must come in. We should consider what incentives we can provide and what aid, trade and
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The potential dividends are large. An agreement with Syria would see a reduction of its support for Hezbollah and allow Lebanon a little more breathing space. That would, in turn, make relations between Israel and Lebanon, which have not been historic enemies, much more normal. Hamas in Gaza would receive less military support and its leadership in Damascus would be removed—there is already talk of that, incidentally—which would, in turn, encourage Hamas to engage more constructively with the Palestinian Authority and hence with Israel. Here, we should again enlist the support of Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Their voices are rather more likely to be listened to and their aims, in this at least, coincide with our own. What discussions are the Government having with the USA to persuade them to take an interest, and with the other Middle East countries in taking this forward?
On the negotiations between the Palestinians and Israelis, their two leaders, both very weak domestically, have been meeting frequently. Perhaps much more significantly, their negotiating teams have been deeply engaged in closely guarded discussions for months. Both sides have much to gain from a successful outcome, but both will have to make sacrifices, which have captured the attentions of those at extreme ends of the political spectrum on both sides. They will have to be faced and dealt with. Meanwhile, the details are, no doubt, being worked on; water supplies, roads and routes, security measures and so on. Yet it is already clear what overall shape the likely outcome will have.
It is likely to include Israel’s withdrawal from over 96 per cent of the West Bank and the dismantling of all but two of the settlement towns heavily embedded in the Jerusalem suburbs, with some geographic compensation elsewhere—the only settlements, incidentally, where some Israeli building is allowed in the West Bank—and the handing over of east Jerusalem to the PA. All those have already been mooted by Mr Olmert; in return, the Palestinians will have to ensure the security of the West Bank and temper their desire for the right of return of the three generations of Palestinians from pre-1948 Palestine, a demand which would see the end of Israel as Israel.
Neither side gets all it wants, and there is resistance, but one feasible way through that depends on the fact that 70 per cent of Israelis and a similar proportion of Palestinians seem strongly in favour of a two-state solution. Certainly, that is clear if the 650,000 members of the organisation One Voice, in equal numbers of Israelis and Palestinians, are anything to go by. If the plan was announced and followed by the dissolution of parliaments on both sides and elections called on the basis of that plan, I suspect that it would be strongly supported. Of course, Hamas as well as the right in Israel would go wild, but the vote will be against them by a population sick and tired of war and killing, and they are likely to be isolated. Iran would be incensed, but there is nothing new there.
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Some would say that this is an unrealistic and wildly optimistic view of one possible outcome, but here in the UK we need to be straining every muscle to support whatever agreement is reached. We should resist the temptation to offer criticism of one or other party—usually Israel, I am afraid. That has absolutely no impact and makes us even easier to ignore. Instead of futile and counterproductive activities, such as the academic boycotts sponsored by the University and College Union, we should be seeking avenues for increased collaboration between the UK and the Middle East, especially at a time when leaders in the region are talking ever more to each other.
What support are the Government giving to Egypt in the mediation between Hamas and Israel? What influence are we bringing to bear on the US and the quartet to induce Syria into an agreement with Israel, and what pressure are we putting on Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states to play a much more active role in promoting the peace process? Finally, what support will my noble friend give to Israel and the Palestinians as they come to announce the results of their discussion and can he expand, in particular, on the aid so desperately needed by the Palestinians, which hangs so tantalizingly on a successful outcome?
7.46 pm
Lord Cope of Berkeley: My Lords, we must all necessarily speak in shorthand this evening. My wife’s family has lived in the east part of Jerusalem for well over a century, so for the past 40 years I have been visiting the area and have been in touch with friends there of all religions. The United Nations records that, to the end of May this year, 397 Palestinians have been killed as a direct result of the conflict. In the same period, 24 Israelis have been killed. Now, it is important to us all that terrorists do not get their way by force but, equally, Israel cannot get peace by such force and repression alone. That breeds defiance and extremism, as does crushing the economy of both the West Bank and Gaza by the wall and by checkpoints and controls.
The two-state solution is Israel’s best hope for real peace, as well as Palestine’s. Only agreement can bring real peace and only talking to everyone concerned can bring agreement. The outline of a solution is well known, as the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, has just indicated. I hope that the Government will give every support that they possibly can to the talks and to any agreement thereby reached.
7.48 pm
Baroness Tonge: My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, on securing this debate. I am horrified, once again, by events in Jerusalem today and send my sincere condolences to the people involved. I was horrified, too, by the treatment of Mohammed Omer, a prize-winning journalist, who had briefed parliamentarians here this week before attempting to go home to Gaza, only to be beaten unconscious at the Allenby Bridge while an official from the Dutch embassy, who had facilitated his visit, was waiting for him. I am horrified by the rockets from Gaza terrorising Israelis, by the suicide bombers, by the helicopter gunships on their deadly missions, the monstrous security wall, the
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I do not condone or understand the relentless expansion of the settlements on Palestinian land in defiance of the Geneva Conventions. I do not condone, but have tried to understand, the failure of the international community—despite strong words of criticism—to take action against Israel. I am beginning to understand the power of the Israel lobby, active here as well as in the USA, with AIPAC, the Friends of Israel and the Board of Deputies. They take vindictive actions against people who oppose and criticise the lobby, getting them removed from positions that they hold and preventing them from speaking—even on unrelated subjects in my case. I understand their methods. I have many examples. They make constant accusations of anti-Semitism when no such sentiment exists to silence Israel’s critics. If Israel is not persuaded to obey UN resolutions, and especially to start dismantling the settlements in the West Bank, anti-Semitism will again stalk Europe. Israel will never have peace and the world will never be free of terrorism unless this problem is resolved first. Attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq—and Iran next—are not the answer. They have created more terrorism. The answer is a peaceful and just settlement for Israel and the Palestinians, and Israel holds most of the cards.
7.51 pm
Lord Wright of Richmond:My Lords, I have three brief questions to put to the Minister. First, will he confirm HMG’s continuing support for the quartet's search for a two-state solution to the Palestinian problem and can he assure the House that HMG will not allow the French initiative for a Mediterranean union—admirable though that may be—to divert attention from this absolute priority?
Secondly, will he confirm HMG's support for the indirect dialogue between the Israelis and the Syrians taking place in Istanbul? On a recent visit to Syria, I detected some doubt among Syrian officials and Ministers about whether HMG, or indeed the United States Government, were fully in support of this very brave initiative on both sides. It would be good to have a strong statement of support from the Minister.
Thirdly—and I hesitate to add a critical note to my intervention in a debate which I know is intended to be helpful to both sides, and I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, for his speech—will the Minister confirm that we continue to press the Israeli Government to end and, indeed, reverse all settlement expansion in the West Bank and east Jerusalem, as agreed in the quartet’s road map and can he report any success from these approaches?
7.53 pm
Lord Judd: My Lords, I unreservedly thank my noble friend Lord Turnberg for this debate and for the balanced and constructive way in which he introduced it. We all have a responsibility to support those brave people who have made the present negotiations possible. In talking about that, we must talk not least about the
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I shall make two observations. First, peace building is a complex and long-term process. Extreme patience—if that is not a contradiction in terms—is necessary. It means being inclusive and involving everybody who can possibly be involved in the process among the immediate parties and people in the region. It is not a matter of limiting talks to the people with whom it is easier to talk. It is a matter of bringing into the talks the people with whom it is difficult to talk. That is why the Hamas dimension is so important and why it is so naive to suppose that there is a homogenous position within it rather than pluralism, which we should be building on.
Secondly, we must give people a stake in wanting peace to continue. That means that the terrible economic and social suffering that is the truth of Gaza and the West Bank at the moment has to be overcome. There is a direct link between the economic and social priorities and the priorities of the political dimension.
It is time that we all got back to understanding why the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the principles of international law are so important. If any situation demonstrated that we must think of people primarily as people, not as one ethnic group or another, it is the Middle East.
7.55 pm
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, the prospects for peace would be enormously enhanced if Hamas could bring itself to recognise Israel. In its short lifetime, Israel has faced Arab armies and cries of “Kill the Jews”. More rockets have fallen on its towns and villages than descended on London in World War 2. Israel is never going to capitulate to that or to the shrill screams of the Iranian President. More Jews—over 800,000—were obliged to leave Arab lands and settle in Israel than Palestinians left beleaguered Israel. Of course, Israel has made grievous mistakes: the increase in settlements and the innocent Arabs killed or maimed—although they were deliberately rendered vulnerable by Hamas. The invasion of the Lebanon is yet another example of ineptitude. Faced by potential extinction, tragedies occur.
The struggle between Israel and Hamas has been exported. In many of our universities, Jewish students have been savagely attacked simply because they are Jews. Dialogue has been replaced by violence. However, there are rays of hope. Let us hope that the ceasefire between Israelis and Arabs can become more durable and that the talks with Abbas can be worth while. An Israeli body preaches that Jewish and Arab landowners can live in peace. Some 77 per cent of Arabs want to continue to live in Israel; 66 per cent of Israeli Jews want Arab children to be taught in Jewish schools and 69 per cent of them support a two-state solution. There are tremendous hurdles in the way of peace, but there is still a viable way ahead.
7.57 pm
Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, in contributing to this important and well balanced debate introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, I am aware that I
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7.58 pm
Lord Janner of Braunstone: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, for introducing this important debate, especially at this crucial and delicate time during negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. The Annapolis process is vital as an opportunity that must be grasped fully, as the consequences of failure could be dire.
On recent visits to Israel and the West Bank, and I have made many of them, I have met leaders on both sides. They all seem to believe that 2008 is a make-or-break year, so Her Majesty’s Government must continue to play whatever part it is possible for them and us to play in a positive process. I welcome the financial support pledged by our Government at the donors’ conference for Palestinian economic development in Paris last December in support of a two-state solution. It is now vital that Her Majesty's Government and the wider international community help to sustain that momentum towards a lasting solution. I am sure that Prime Minister Olmert and President Abbas agree. They meet twice a month and their negotiating teams come together regularly to discuss final-status issues. We must support, help and accelerate those negotiations. The alternative to talking is a return to the terrible violence that ended the peace process at Camp David in 2000, which we saw today and a little of which we perhaps heard a moment or two ago.
The truce with Hamas is welcome and especially necessary for the people of Sderot and Gaza. But Hamas must remain outside the mainstream peace talks while it fails to recognise Israel and its right to exist and to fulfil the quartet’s other guiding principles. Every effort must continue speedily to recognise the goal of an Israel that is free from daily threats of terror, with secure borders, alongside a viable and fully functioning Palestinian state. That is what the overwhelming majority of Israelis and Palestinians crave and deserve and I hope that it will soon become a reality.
8 pm
Lord Hylton: My Lords, the best single form of support that Her Majesty’s Government can provide would be to bring Fatah and Hamas together. They may not immediately be able to form a national unity Government, but they could have a joint or a co-ordinated team to negotiate with Israel. That would greatly improve the chances of acceptance of any agreement among all Palestinians.
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