| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
The noble Baroness referred to those matters that she wishes to create. I am more concerned about what will be destroyed. An organisation to which all the people in Cheshire look as their central body will be destroyed and split into two. One interesting thing that has happened in those areas on the periphery of Cheshire that have been sloughed off into other areas or into their own unitary authorities is that they still think of themselves as Cheshire; they want to be part of Cheshire. It is a long-term, historic county, to which those in it have a great deal of loyalty.
I do not disagree with the noble Baroness when she makes the point that certain groups and certain authorities want to maintain their independence and want to be the new leaders. “They would, wouldn’t they?”, as has been said in the past. That is their role, but that does not mean that that is the best solution. The best solution is one that overrides the local issues, rivalries and prejudices and looks at what is the best long-term decision—I emphasise long-term decision. At the end of her remarks, the noble Baroness said that, if we do not agree this soon, there will be further delay, which will cause disruption. Frankly, I am not worried about a little delay now, provided that we come to the best decision for the people of Cheshire in the future.
The Minister talked about the economic future of the county and how it might be more satisfactory if the county were divided into two units that had their economic allegiance in different areas. I completely
4 Mar 2008 : Column 1038
The noble Baroness is working against what the majority of people in Cheshire want. Her proposal is not wanted by the business community of Cheshire; it is strongly resisted by the rural community in Cheshire and by its very active food production industry; and it does not have the support of all the citizens of Cheshire. I believe that, if we are to go forward as the Government propose, creating a new structure well into the future with the inevitable disruption that will occur, that will not be the best solution. I appreciate her point that sub-committees have been established and are working towards that end—again, “They would, wouldn’t they?”, as that is their role. I have no doubt that they will try their best to make whatever they have work.
Neither have we found out what the financial implications are. The Minister made the point that it is not right for her to give certain information, but if people are to make the right decisions they need to understand the financial implications of these changes. History tells us that, every time we make decisions on the financial costs of local government change, those costs always end up at least twice as much as anyone ever anticipated. I am as certain as I can be that that will happen in this case. The implication of all the little things that the Minister has not mentioned or does not appear to have taken into consideration is that they will cause considerable problems. There are issues that are now dealt with by the county on a centralised basis, which everyone will find extremely difficult to divide into an east and a west.
I return to my original proposal that there must be a much better understanding of the financial implications, which must be transparent and open to everyone. On that basis the people of Cheshire can be asked for their views. Surely if we are to make changes of this kind they need to be of such a quality and such a level that all those affected by them are behind them and can support them. So far, that has not happened.
The noble Baroness makes the point that this is a difficult decision. Well, these are difficult decisions, because she is inundated with all kinds of pressure from all kinds of sources. But leadership must make those decisions away from the pressures, looking at the long-term picture of what is in the best interests of
4 Mar 2008 : Column 1039
Moved, as an amendment to the Motion, at end to insert “but this House calls on Her Majesty’s Government not to proceed with the draft order until the residents of Cheshire have been fully and properly consulted and have been able to express a view on the division of their county.”—(Lord Wade of Chorlton.)
7 pm
Lord Harrison rose to move, as an amendment to the amendment in the name of Lord Wade of Chorlton, at end to insert “and Parliament has had the opportunity to debate their opinions.”
The noble Lord said: My Lords, let me introduce you to the ancient, proud and historic location of the county of Cheshire and let me introduce you to the strange world of Alice in Wonderland, the creation of one of Cheshire’s finest sons, Lewis Carroll. For tonight the Government plan to take us into Alice’s Wonderland, to wipe the smile off the face of the Cheshire cat and to create two artificial entities of west and east Cheshire: two entities that have no friends, no heart, no history and no bottom, solidity or definition; two entities entirely devoid of that which gives communities and individuals character, place, definition and support. Tonight we forge two entities entirely bereft of location, location, location.
I speak to my own amendment and support that of the noble Lord, Lord Wade, to try to avoid the break-up of this ancient, historic county of Cheshire, itself designated four star and still rising in its ability to respond to the people of Cheshire. Cheshire boasts of its chief executives in speaking of the quality of the people who have served this ancient county, even just over the past 30 years: Sir John Boynton was asked to help the Government out on the Rhodesia/Zimbabwe issue; Robin Wendt went on to work on care provision nationally; Colin Cheeseman is now a member of the Parkinson’s Disease Society; Sir Michael Pitt recently reported on behalf of government on flooding; and Jeremy Taylor. That is the quality that the noble Lord, Lord Wade, was referring to—the kind of quality that will be lost if Cheshire is lost.
I strongly support the principle of unitary authorities. In a new incarnation, Cheshire can rise again as a single unitary. It has the capacity to absorb the 15 per cent of services currently given by the six district councils, because it supplies 80 to 85 per cent of existing work. It is ideally placed to oversee the transition, one of the follies of which is that there is no succeeding authority in existence to allow the collapsing of seven authorities into two. Of course, Cheshire can retain and, in its new incarnation, extend its reputation and its name as a county of bottom and worth—a Rolls-Royce of a county, with a big engine, running smoothly, proudly and effectively at its heart, and a real place.
My amendment to that of the noble Lord, Lord Wade, is designed not only to test the views of the people of Cheshire, but also to debate them in Parliament. I shall clarify the case for a single unitary but also plead for a delay, not as a delaying tactic but
4 Mar 2008 : Column 1040
The Minister’s siren voice is saying, as we have heard tonight, that delay will postpone elections, that Chester City Council badly needs County Hall now in order to decant its people and that general mayhem will ensue. But the House of Lords is nothing if not the place to flag up dangers to the other House when it perceives them to be real. Indeed, the delay is not of our making. It is imperative, even if you think that the two unitaries are required. It is better to arrive at the best decision than the fastest decision.
The delay is at the door of the Government and the district councils. The Government have hesitated three times in thinking about reorganisation in Cheshire since 2004. Only in July 2007, they dealt with five other unitaries with a clear verdict. However, this time, in looking at Cheshire, they said that what was proposed by the district councils and what was proposed by Cheshire County Council were both viable. They said that the five criteria were clearly passed by Cheshire County Council. Indeed, their problem was with the district councils. So poor and unconvincing were the district councils’ financial returns that the Government asked them to go away and redo the figures. They did not ask Cheshire County Council to do so, because it passed with flying colours.
The Government reopened the matter and invited comments and then, abruptly, on 18 December last year—the last day of term in your Lordships’ House and the other place—they confirmed that they were minded to favour two unitaries over the single unitary. It is not on, for a Parliament that exists to scrutinise the Executive, for the Government to announce such a thing on the last day of term, shortly before Christmas when everyone went away.
It was not only I who was surprised and it was not only Cheshire that was surprised that this decision was made in the dark days before Christmas. The Treasury was surprised, too. When I came back to your Lordships’ House, I opened a letter on 19 January from Andy Burnham at the Treasury, which said that the Government had not decided what to do with Cheshire, that the matter was out for consultation and that we were still going to go through the motions of examining the two possible solutions. I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister; when I brought this to her attention, she tried to clear the mess up. However, it was unsatisfactory. If there is delay, it has been brought about by my own dear Government.
However, the district councils’ confusion did not help. The Government made great play of the proposals being from within Cheshire, originally sponsored, of course, by Chester City Council. It was claimed last week in the Commons debate that all six district councils supported the proposals. This is palpably false: Crewe and Nantwich has never supported them; Congleton has never supported them—indeed, we hear of the judicial review that has been requested; and the original sponsor, Chester, no longer supports them, following its change of administration in the town hall. Ellesmere Port and Neston supported them, but tells me that it supported an entirely different proposal,
4 Mar 2008 : Column 1041
Large percentages are against the proposal. If we measure by the number of councils, their spending power and population, we have to conclude that a large majority are against. What about the Government’s criterion of popular and stakeholder—I prefer the phrase “interested party” to “stakeholder”, but I have to use it—support? Crewe and Nantwich financed a countywide IPSOS Mori survey and, within Crewe and Nantwich, a local postal ballot in June 2007, which was approved by IPSOS Mori and scrutinised by external auditors. The countywide telephone survey demonstrated only 23 per cent support for the two unitaries. Some 30,000 postal ballot papers were returned and produced a figure of 5 per cent—one in 20—in favour of the two unitaries. In June 2007, BMG produced a preference survey for Cheshire County Council in which only one in four was in favour of the two unitaries. Since then support has slipped and opposition has mounted.
In last week’s Commons debate, Minister Healey talked about the necessity of providing a broad cross-section of support in Cheshire for these proposals to have two unitaries. Let us have a look at the broad cross-section of support. Let me name those who broadly support it. Mr Healey quoted AstraZeneca; Cheshire Building Society; East Cheshire NHS Trust; Western Cheshire Primary Care Trust; West Cheshire College; the Highways Agency; and Age Concern East Cheshire. That is it. Contrast that with the opponents: Cheshire Police Authority; Cheshire Fire Authority, of which I shall speak more; the Probation Service; Cheshire Association of Governing Bodies; Cheshire Association of Secondary Headteachers; Cheshire Association of Special School Headteachers; Cheshire Association of Primary Headteachers; Age Concern Cheshire; Merseyside and Cheshire Ambulance Trust; Central and Eastern Cheshire PCT; Cheshire Association of Local Councils; Cheshire Federation of Women’s Institutes; Cheshire Federation of Young Farmers Clubs; Reaseheath College; Age Concern; Cheshire Landscape Trust—I declare an interest; Manchester Airport plc; Cheshire Crimebeat; and the National Trust. I am not sure of the position of the chess club in Chester, but that does not represent a broad cross-section.
Minister Healey also invoked the parish councils. He said that six out of 20 parishes were in favour of the two unitaries. The truth of the matter is, as the DCLG’s paper demonstrated, that of the 53 parishes that replied, 48 were against. The failure to publish the DCLG responses has provoked more concern about the responses of the people of Cheshire to these proposals. We know that there were 906 responses,
4 Mar 2008 : Column 1042
Your Lordships’ esteemed Merits Committee has pronounced on this. It sought only to pronounce on the response. There has already been talk about that this evening. When your Lordships comment on something, the most moderate of language is used. This is a compendium of those who are against the proposals and it is a source book for those who wish to see why that is the case. This is the conclusion of our Merits Committee:
“We recognise that creating two new authorities to run some of the most complex services, such as child protection and adult care, must pose particular challenges. We understand the Government’s wish to achieve an early resolution of the uncertainties caused by re-organisation, but suggest that this should be weighed carefully against allowing more preparation time for the new authorities to be established, bearing in mind the complexities that have been identified”.
Other noble Lords will speak to that, but children’s and adult’s services are complex issues, with which the members and officers of district councils are unfamiliar. The Minister said tonight that the Merits Committee gave some sort of green light, but I think it is far from that and as deep an amber and as near to red as could be found.
I shall amplify two areas of particular concern that have already been labelled as those that oppose the two-unitaries solution. One is the fire authority. The chief fire officer has been in contact with me because he is worried that the concerns about running a proper fire service in Cheshire have not been recognised by the Government. The fire authority writes that,
- “the Fire Authority will be heavily impacted by the changes to the council structures in Cheshire, both from a partnership perspective, and constitutionally ... Although earlier Government guidance suggested that arrangements for reconstituting the Fire Authority would be dealt with separately, we feel that it is both inconsiderate and naive of the Government for the Order to be issued without explicitly recognising the impact on organisations which draw their Members from affected Authorities, such as ourselves and the police authority.
Moreover, the inability to spell out what impact the transitional arrangements will have on the Fire Authority and at what point changes will be made to our constitutional arrangements, is likely to damage the objective of establishing strong arrangements for empowering local communities”.
What are the criteria that have been put forward by the Government? Like the new and existing councils, the fire authority will have to ensure continuity of services, despite potential changes to over half the existing membership.
Let me now turn to the schools sector. I very much regret that despite many requests Ed Balls, the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families, has not met those of us from Cheshire who would have liked to have put him right about these issues. I quote from a letter of 26 February from the All Cheshire Schools’ Heads and Governors Association, which is a very comprehensive group of people. It says that the worries it has have about this hasty transition are the priority of education for the new authority; the new authorities’ financial positions and individual school budgets—they are not known;
4 Mar 2008 : Column 1043
“These concerns, are, we believe, causing some schools to lose their focus on raising standards and divert their energies to combating perceived threats. A few of our schools are even considering what we consider precipitate and perhaps inappropriate courses of action to combat those perceived threats. It would therefore be most helpful if the DCSF, as the only currently existing body”—
because there is no succeeding body—
- “with ongoing responsibility and authority could provide the reassurances that we seek. But the government must understand that if the finances of the two unitary councils are weak from the outset—and they will be—then the new authorities will inevitably struggle to provide the same services as at present”.
“The organisational uncertainty, policy hiatus and central education leadership team changes precipitated by LGR, not to mention an exceptionally challenging timetable for implementation are, however, jeopardising educational standards”.
We are here to listen and we are here to act on that advice.
We heard from the Minister and from Minister Healey that everything is going hunky-dory in the preparation committees, the implementation committees. That, too, is wrong. The leader of Crewe and Nantwich Council states to me:
those proposed in east Cheshire—
- “being responsible public bodies, there is an inevitability about wanting to make the best of a dog's dinner. However, he”—
- “is utterly wrong that good progress is being made. There is not even get an agreed implementation plan. He is right that the process is challenging. In all other areas, county councils are absorbing districts and there is a continuity of authority approach. In Cheshire there is no continuing authority and the county council functions need to be disaggregated. There is no precedent for this and yet there is an expectation of working to the same timescales as other new unitary councils. The timescale will be achieved, but not in a smooth fashion and not without great cost, upheaval and distress”.
Interestingly, in her opening address, my noble friend said that there are examples from the past—Berkshire, for instance, in 1974. But when Berkshire was split, it went down to the five existing district councils. Therefore, they had a fair start. Mention of Avon and Humberside is astonishing. They were unloved from the beginning and when there was the opportunity to get rid of them, people were pleased to do so.
We are talking about the county of Cheshire, which has been here for a thousand years. Cheshire County Council is a Rolls-Royce county. It has men and women with huge experience of public service. When it is asked to do something, it attempts to do it. I hear from the county council that officers and councillors are coming in from the district councils who know not what they are taking on, in terms of the sizable services, the implications for children and adult services, or anything else.
Lord Tordoff: My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord will forgive me if I draw his attention to the Companion. Paragraph 4.44 states:
4 Mar 2008 : Column 1044
“In debates where there are no formal time limits, members opening or winding up, from either side, are expected to keep within 20 minutes. Other speakers are expected to keep within 15 minutes”.
I fear that the noble Lord has now been speaking for 23 minutes and a number of us who are in support of him will find ourselves less so than when he started.
Lord Harrison: My Lords, I apologise, but in mitigation, I hope that the point that I made right at the beginning will be understood: that we have simply not had the opportunity to put our point of view. Despite other Members of this House having applied repeatedly to the Chancellor, the Secretary of State for Education and others, we have not been entertained or given a chance to speak up. I apologise to others and I will try to bring my report to a close, but I hope that the House will understand that there is that strong feeling.
Let me just mention some other areas. If we are to conclude as we are, we will have difficulties with education and children's services. We will have to disaggregate current functions such as highways, libraries, waste, trading standards and tourism. There is even the problem at Tatton Park that is, increasing bureaucracy and costs.
Let me conclude with some mention of strategic leadership. When I was concerned with Cheshire County Council in the north-west, it was imperative that Cheshire County Council spoke with one voice. Otherwise, we in the north-west lost the gravitational power of Liverpool, of Manchester and of Lancashire. As the noble Lord, Lord Wade of Chorlton, mentioned the report from Salford University, which routs the proposition that somehow Cheshire in the west and Cheshire in the east gravitate towards Liverpool and Manchester, whereas in fact they have a unique, strong and thriving economy within themselves, I will not repeat that.
| Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |