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However, I fully recognise the point the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, makes about the need to review the position on the birth certificates of donor-conceived people. It is clear that many noble Lords have given a lot of thought to the needs of donor-conceived people, the importance of knowledge about their genetic history, and the implications of annotating birth certificates in some way. We need to keep in mind the options and consider how people’s views on those options may change. Assessing the impact of the Donor Conception Network’s projects to educate patients and parents about the need to tell will play a part in that.
I can make a firm commitment that the Government will carry out a review of practices in informing donor-conceived children of the fact of their donor conception and whether there is a need for a change in the law to best ensure that donor-conceived children are informed of their donor conception. We will do this within the timeframe suggested by the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin.
The noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, is right to speak of the need for us to be clear about the aims and remit of the review. We must take care. We cannot accept the amendment as tabled, as it refers to the law and practice in this area, but there is no law in place to review in relation to the annotation of birth certificates. I can commit to a review. Placing the provision in the Bill still poses problems, but I understand the reasoning behind the amendment and the strength of feeling in your Lordships’ House. I therefore invite the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment and accept the firm commitment I am making, and assure him that I will continue discussions with him and others as the Bill continues its passage in the other place.
Before I conclude, I also want to place on record my thanks to my noble friend Lord Darzi and to all Members of the House who have taken part in these extraordinary debates on such scientific and ethical issues. It has been the most amazing education and a huge privilege to have taken part in discussion on the Bill. I am also very grateful to the Bill team. The Bill has benefited greatly from the wisdom that your Lordships have imparted in debates in this House.
Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, I, too, begin by adding my thanks to the noble Baroness and to the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, for the way in which they have dealt with the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Darzi, is familiar with many of the technicalities, but the way in which the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, has coped
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On the amendment, the noble Baroness went almost all the way. I am going to disclose one thing that she told me in her telephone conversation this afternoon: that she would work to get something into the Bill in another place. That was not repeated on the Floor of the House. If she could, just by nodding, give me her assurance that, as well as discussing it with us, as she has offered, she will discuss it with her noble friends in another place—
Earl Ferrers: They are not noble.
Lord Jenkin of Roding: No, my Lords. I meant the noble Baroness’s right honourable and honourable friends—I am happy to stand corrected—in another place. She is nodding very vigorously; I shall make sure that Hansard records that. On that basis, I think that we have reached the end of the Bill and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
An amendment (privilege) made.
Lord Darzi of Denham: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass. I just want to say a few words of thanks to all noble Lords. This has been an amazing experience for me, I can tell you. I thank you all for your patience, your support, the scientific support, the legal support, the ethical support and the moral support. I have never been through an experience like this before and it has certainly been a pleasure. I also make a specific point of thanking my noble friend Lady Royall, who has been absolutely brilliant in taking me through this interesting journey. I never thought that I would take a Bill like this through but, more importantly, resuscitate a colleague through it. I am obviously delighted to see that the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, is doing very well. Thank you all for the privilege of this experience.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Lord Darzi of Denham.)
On Question, Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
Climate Change Bill [HL]
6.58 pm
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Viscount Simon) in the Chair.]
Clause 61 [Territorial scope of provisions relating to greenhouse gas emissions]:
[Amendments Nos. 185 and 186 not moved.]
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Lord Taylor of Holbeach moved Amendment No. 187:
No secondary legislation, including any order or regulations, may be made under this Act unless it is necessary for the proper operation of the Act and is compatible with the principal aim of the Act.”
The noble Lord said: The first amendment in the group places a prohibition on making secondary legislation unless it is consistent with the principal aim of the Act. It was on the very first day of this Committee that we debated whether to include a principal aim in the Bill. I do not intend to rehash the arguments made then, but I would like to treat the amendment as an opportunity to discuss a general problem with the Bill, as we look forward to Report.
The order-making powers in the Bill are too extensive. As it stands, the Secretary of State can change virtually all the targets, budgets and training schemes by order. Likewise, as we heard in the waste management services section, there is imprecision and power beyond the specific elements of addressing climate change.
I do not necessarily suspect the Government of planting Trojan horses in a cynical attempt to increase the power of the Secretary of State. However, we feel that it is important that the amendment be included to ensure that this Bill—which is very much just a framework—will not be interpreted in a way that is not related to or in keeping with its primary policy purpose of stopping climate change.
An example of an unnecessary power given to the Secretary of State is the subject of the second amendment in this group, proposed by the noble Lords, Lord Teverson and Lord Redesdale, and which also carries our names. The Secretary of State should not select the time at which this Bill is enacted. This Bill should come into force on the day that it is passed. I beg to move.
Lord Teverson: I generally agree with the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, in terms of his amendment and the very great issues that any secondary legislation could cover in a Bill that is as wide as this is written. As we have seen, this primary legislation has introduced provision on renewable transport fuels and waste disposal, which we were happy to debate most of the last Committee day. We also believe that this is an important area.
My own Amendment No. 188 refers to the climate change committee. This area should come into force when the Bill is passed. I cannot see the Government or the Minister objecting to that. They are keen, as we all are, for this Bill to move on—not just to reach the statute book, but to be implemented so that we can all get on and save the planet. The most appropriate date for that important work to commence would be on the day that the Bill is passed.
Referring to the climate change committee, I was delighted to read Defra’s press release about the nomination and appointment—subject to the Bill being passed or however these things work—of our colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Turner. That is an excellent start in showing how important that committee is and how independent it needs to be.
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Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: I hope I can offer some reassurance to noble Lords with regard to this possibly very short debate. I understand the concern expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor. I asked the Bill team to go through the order-making powers and have also had a look myself to try to get a feel for how it looks when they are put together.
A theme has been running through our debates in Committee. In fact, my noble friend Lord Rooker has agreed to consider a number of questions on transparency and order-making issues. There is an intention to write to interested Peers and opposition spokespeople on a number of those before Report.
Amendment No. 187 would specifically prevent the Government bringing forward any secondary legislation which was not strictly necessary for the proper operation of the Act or not compatible with the two-degree goal, which we debated earlier in Committee. I appreciate the spirit behind the noble Lord’s amendment, but this would have a significant impact on the Government’s ability to meet the targets and budgets set under the Bill.
The two tests in Amendment No. 187 would set the bar extremely high. I understand that the amendments are probing but will take a moment to go through why they would set the bar so high. The requirement for secondary legislation to be necessary for the Act’s operation could have significant consequences. For instance, as the Bill already has a 2050 target, any regulations amending it are not strictly necessary for the Bill’s operation. This amendment would prevent the 2050 target being amended. For example, new trading schemes, as enabled by Part 3, are also not strictly necessary for its operation. Therefore, this amendment would also prevent the Government introducing any trading schemes to reduce UK emissions and help us meet our targets. I understand that the amendment is probing at a wider concern, so I will not labour that.
Amendment No. 188 would commence Part 2 on the day that the Act is passed. It would mean that the Committee on Climate Change becomes a statutory body on that date. I understand that noble Lords want to see the committee operational as soon as possible. However, there are practical reasons why the Government have included the provision to set the date in the Bill. As your Lordships will be aware, we do not often know in advance the exact date on which a Bill will be granted Royal Assent. That means that the establishment of such an important body could come, relatively speaking, as a surprise. We would not want that to happen.
There are very real considerations which require us to be able to plan this, so that it happens not only quickly but in an orderly and well managed way. For example, the committee’s staff will be its backbone and it is important that we make it convenient for both staff and the body alike to have advance notice of when the body will be legally established. That will help provide greater certainty as to, for example, the terms of their employment. As noble Lords will also understand, it is more administratively convenient if a body comes into existence on a known date—ideally, at the start of a new quarter, but, at the very least, the first of the month.
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However, we recognise the demands for greater certainty about when the committee will be vested and the desire for it be at the earliest opportunity. I therefore reassure the Committee that it is our intention to commence Part 2 at the earliest practicable date, and no later than three months after we receive Royal Assent. The date will be decided following consultation with the committee’s chair-designate.
I am happy to put this commitment on record for the Committee and hope, with this reassurance—and my communication of the information that my noble friend Lord Rooker will be writing to noble Lords who have participated in Committee—that the noble Lord will consider withdrawing his amendment.
Lord Teverson: I would like to comment on that briefly, before the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, intervenes. I was terribly impressed by all that until the Minister said three months. I accept entirely the shortcomings of my own amendments in terms of the day of Royal Assent, which we may not be able to tie up exactly. However, I would have thought that the first day of the month, or within the month, was what we should expect at the very least. The reassurance is excellent, but I find three months excessive.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I echo those words. I hope that the Minister will listen carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, has said. It seems remarkable. We know that so much has got to be done by the climate change committee so early, because we are vesting all sorts of responsibilities in it. The debates in Committee have given a strong argument for it being empowered to advise on setting targets and even, as we have proposed, setting targets itself. It is a mistake to have a delay before its authority is fully vested, and I hope that the contributions made in this short debate will be taken into account when the letter is penned.
I do not wholly take the Minister’s argument that accepting our amendments would mean that the orders changing the 2050 target could not be implemented. After all, the purpose of the Bill is to reduce climate change. Setting targets is an instrument for achieving that objective, but the purpose of the Bill is made quite clear in Clause 1. There is therefore no contradiction. I have not examined this from a legal point of view, but my feeling is that there cannot be a contradiction. Having said all that, I was very reassured by what the Minister said about how our debates in Committee have impressed on her, on the Government and on the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, that it is necessary at least to try to reconcile the need to empower the Secretary of State to issue orders with the need to ensure that the powers and authority of Parliament are also recognised. With that assurance, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 67 [Meaning of “national authority”]:
Lord Dixon-Smith moved Amendment No. 187A:
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The noble Lord said: The Committee will be relieved to hear that this is a probing amendment. I was led to table it when I read Schedule 1, which of course I read before I got to the end of the Bill because it comes up much earlier and must be read in context. The opening line of the schedule alerted me to the need to have this discussion. It says:
As the noble Lord, Lord Turner of Ecchinswell, is in his place, I should say that I too am very glad to welcome him to that job, even though—I hope he will not blush when I say this—I was somewhat surprised to see in the House Magazine that a job which I saw described in another press release as the third most important job in the country, after Prime Minister and Chancellor of the Exchequer, is apparently assumed to take only one day a week. There is a little inconsistency there, which the Minister may be able to explain.
Anyway, we need to discuss a little the meaning of the “national authorities”. This appears only in Schedule 1 and in Clause 67, which gives the meaning of “national authority” in definitions. Clause 67(1) states:
Subsection (2), however, says:
“Functions conferred or imposed by this Act on ‘the national authorities’ are to be exercised by all of them jointly”.
That, too, is simple enough, and I am glad that it works, except that the relationship is quite complicated. There is in this appointing body one Secretary of State but 12 Scottish Ministers and 11 Welsh Ministers. Indeed, I am not quite sure how many people there are if you include one “relevant Northern Ireland department”—let us assume that it is one.
The real question is how this works. We know that it has worked for the chairman, but the subsection says that the functions will,
I think that the people who wrote that into the Bill simply had not thought about the wording, because you will never get all those people together to work jointly. Even if you put in a conference call, someone will not be able to be at the right place at the right time to take part in the discussion.
7.15 pm
Finally, what happens if someone disagrees? Is there a mechanism for determining whether one Secretary of State in the United Kingdom Government equals 12 Scottish Ministers who might disagree with him? Are we saying that what we really require is a majority of the Ministers in the devolved institutions to accept, and that, if they do, that is all right? What does,
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mean? I tabled this little amendment because we need to discuss this, particularly because we need a means of dealing with disagreement if difficulties arise in the future—this job goes on when substitutes are appointed to the committee at some point in the future. If you do not think about this when you write the original agreement, by the time the original agreement is in place and in law, it is too late to change it. I beg to move.
The Duke of Montrose: We are back to a topic that we broached on 8 January on our third day in Committee, when I listened with much interest to what the Minister, who is now in his place, had to say about the likely outcome of a falling out between Westminster and some of the devolved Administrations. The amendment that I moved at that point was criticised because it implied that Westminster was wielding a big stick against the devolved Administrations in a field where it no longer had any right to do so. I support the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Dixon-Smith because it is a much milder take on the thing.
The co-ordination of the national authorities on all aspects of the Bill, which my noble friend described, will be difficult but essential to the Bill’s success. The Minister has mentioned several times in Committee that devolved authorities have issued statements about their intent to comply with the Bill, but he himself flagged up very early on the fact that one of the dangers in considering the Bill at the moment is that there is currently huge general enthusiasm for the concept. So far as I remember, only once, in a major intervention in our discussions, was the point made about how people will view the measures when they are causing disadvantage or deprivation. Science may progress; the accepted wisdom may change; individuals, regions or national authorities may disagree.
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