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I am glad that the Government have increased the maintenance disregard for those on benefits and have recognised that the commission’s main purpose is to promote the welfare of the child rather than to claw back benefits. That should directly affect child poverty. However, there is a strong argument for increasing the disregard still further if we wish to move more children out of poverty. We on these Benches wish the Minister success as he pilots this Bill through the House for the good of all the children in our nation.
12.40 pm
Lord Northbourne: My Lords, I welcome the Bill as far as it goes, but it is totally inadequate to address the serious problems that face our society today: dysfunctional families, poorly socialised and undereducated teenagers, and the general lack of appropriate family life. The vast majority of mothers and fathers in this country
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Money is only a small part of the problem. In so far as the Bill helps the resident carer to have more money for their child, it will help, but in so far as it simply reduces the amount of benefits that the Government have to pay to the mother, it will help only the Treasury and not the child. The Bill cannot deliver the social change that our society desperately needs. There is a need for a change of heart. If non-resident parents understand their responsibilities fully, child maintenance will be easier to collect. Unless they understand and accept their obligations to the children whom they brought into the world, the collection of child maintenance may be destabilised, and it may destabilise our society further by seeming to some parents to be totally unreasonable. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwell and Nottingham referred to that problem.
Ministers often refer to the responsibilities of parenthood. In his opening remarks today, the Minister quoted one of his colleagues in another place who said that although a relationship may end, responsibility to children does not. But where is a clear definition of the responsibilities of parents to their children set out in English law? I do not believe that one is. The definition in the Children Act 1989 does not give any useful guidance on those responsibilities.
There is increasing awareness that all children and young people need help to achieve appropriate social and emotional development and communication skills. That process starts at or before birth and goes on throughout childhood. If the appropriate building blocks are not in place by the time the child is 30 months old, he or she will start life with a disadvantage that may grow as he or she grows up. From the first day of his or her life or before, a child needs stability and security based on a loving attachment to at least one committed, stable and caring adult. Secure attachment to an appropriate committed adult, usually the mother, is essential. It makes it much easier for the mother to give the commitment and the time necessary to do the job if she has a decent and committed partner to help and work with her. The child can then also benefit from the secondary attachment to that partner. Committed grandparents, committed kin and a committed community, where it exists, can also be important. To enable more of our young people to succeed in their lives we should address their need for a strong and supportive family group in which to grow up.
The most important first step in this direction must be for our society to agree on what part of the responsibility for parenting a child belongs to the parents and what help and support parents should be entitled to expect from the state, their neighbours and their extended family respectively. Both parents, in so
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As we very properly place a financial maintenance burden on the absent parent, are we, and they, not entitled to know whether the resident parent is doing his or her part of the maintenance job properly? It may seem politically incorrect to suggest that a mother would not be doing her job properly while the father was absent, but let us reverse the scenario and suppose the courts have given care of the child to the father. Surely the mother will not only want to be sure that the money she is providing is being used properly, she will want to know that the child is being looked after properly. The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope, referred to the entitlement to maintenance which should attach to the child. That is another interesting thought in the context of what I have just said.
Any solution to our present problems will inevitably involve focusing most support from the Government, the state or the taxpayer on that minority of families who are struggling. As we do so, however, it is important not to create a perverse incentive. The parenting behaviour of those who give their children the care they need must be rewarded and encouraged so as to encourage others to do the same. That may be difficult to build into the system but we need to think about it. The Bill rightly provides a douche of cold water on the heads of some of those parents who shirk their responsibilities, but it fails to look at the problem in the round. It does not set its proposals in the wider context.
The Bill would have been more acceptable and workable, in an ideal world, if it had been part of a Children Bill that clearly set out the responsibilities of parenthood in our society as we understand them today. One way to do that would have been to adopt the neat and sensitive definition of parental responsibility that already exists in the Children (Scotland) Act 1995. In summary, the definition is: the making of a long-term commitment to safeguard and promote the child’s health, development and welfare, and to provide direction and guidance to the child in a manner that is appropriate to its age and development. The Bill should have had that definition as its first clause. Although the Short Title of the Bill makes it impossible for me to table a first-clause amendment, I shall introduce amendments to the text of the Bill that will test the Government’s commitment on this issue.
12.49 pm
Lord Dixon: My Lords, I give a general welcome to the Bill: any improvement on the present system has to be welcomed. When I was a Member of the other place, most of my mailbag and certainly most of my surgery cases involved dealing with the Child Support Act 1991. Most of the debate this morning has been about the Child Support Agency, but I want to confine my remarks to Part 4 of the Bill, which deals with lump-sum payments for mesothelioma.
I worked in a shipyard and the ship-repairing industry for 37 years before I was elected to the other place in 1979. Many of my colleagues unfortunately died of asbestos-related diseases and I have seen first hand what a terrible death that is. I only wish that my
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For almost 20 years compensation was paid to those who were diagnosed with pleural plaques. There is no way that a person can get them other than through exposure to asbestos. Pleural plaques are a result of penetration of the lungs by asbestos fibres and often cause breathlessness. They occur as a result of asbestos fibres passing through to the back of the lung, causing hardening of the pleura that protect the lungs. When someone is diagnosed with pleural plaques it often causes stress and anxiety both to them and to their families, who are well aware that a proportion of those so diagnosed will go on to develop a more serious asbestos-related disease.
Since the Law Lords’ ruling on pleural plaques on 17 October there has been a great deal of anger and concern, especially in areas such as the one where I live in south Tyneside, a great ship-building area where most of the male employment was in ship building and repairing—as it is no longer because the industry was destroyed during the 1980s. A report in the Shields Gazette by Kaye Hendry from the British Lung Foundation found that chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, which includes conditions such as chronic bronchitis and emphysema, was prevalent in the Tyne and Wear area. South Tyneside has the highest proportion of people at risk of future hospital admission from chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, 62 per cent above the national average.
After the Law Lords’ ruling I received a petition which reads:
“This is a heartfelt appeal from workers in Jarrow and surrounding areas and their families. We would be very grateful for a few moments of your time to consider our circumstances. We have been diagnosed with pleural plaques described to us as scarring of the lung caused by exposure to asbestos. At this time, there is no evidence to show that it is harmful in itself. However, any soft tissue damage, especially to a vital organ, cannot be considered as a positive thing. Furthermore, this scarring proves exposure to asbestos and we are well aware that this exposure can result in asbestosis. Many of us have close family or friends who have suffered from asbestosis and have seen the devastating effects of that disease”.
The petition was signed by more than 200 people in south Tyneside who were ex-shipyard workers or the relatives of workers who had been diagnosed as having pleural plaques. They do not need to be told that they are safe and that only a small proportion of those diagnosed with pleural plaques go on to get asbestos-related diseases.
Listening to the debate next door, I was concerned that the Scottish Cabinet Secretary for Justice, Kenny MacAskill said:
“Following careful consideration of the 17 October 2007 House of Lords Judgment on pleural plaques and having listened to the views of representatives of asbestos campaign groups and of the insurance industry, the Scottish Government has decided to introduce a Bill to reverse the Judgment so that those negligently exposed to asbestos who have been diagnosed with pleural plaques will ... be able to raise and pursue actions for
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Will my noble friend say whether it is possible for such a Bill to be introduced by the Scottish Parliament, as I have been informed that civic law and law on damages are devolved matters? If it succeeds, and I hope it does, we will have another anomaly on this side of the border.
A great and late colleague of mine, Harry Cowans, former MP for Newcastle upon Tyne Central—in his maiden speech in the 1974-79 Labour Government, when devolution was being debated—said:
“If Scotland gets devolution and nothing is done about the north-east of England, that would be like waking up one morning to find your next-door neighbour has won the pools”.
His words will be true if ex-shipyard workers on the Clyde get compensation for pleural plaques but ex-shipyard workers on the Tyne do not. When you add this issue to prescription charges, student fees and care for the elderly, I am afraid that there will be further resentment in the north of England about devolution in Scotland.
There was an article by Terry Kelly in the local paper—the Shields Gazette—headed “Asbestos Ruling to be Challenged”. It refers to what I have just said about the Scottish Parliament and states:
“Former shipyard worker Fred Hewitt, of Fellside, South Shields, who has lived for years with the fear and anxiety of pleural plaques, or scarring of the lung tissue, welcomed the latest development in the compensation saga. Mr Hewitt, 73, who has seen friends die of ... asbestos-related disease ...said ‘This news is champion, and I hope they are successful. But there should not be different laws on either side of the border”.
The Government have the opportunity in Part 4 to rectify that anomaly. I sincerely hope that, when the Bill goes to Committee, the Government will seriously consider what was said next door by my honourable friend Mick Clapham and what has been said today on Second Reading.
12.57 pm
Lord Addington: My Lords, I have felt more and more superfluous as I have listened to this debate, because of the level of expertise and command of certain Members of this House. I say to my noble friend Lord Kirkwood, that if the board are foolish enough to reject him from that role, that would be our loss. Someone with that degree of expertise is required.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, went through the levels of complication required in this area, I wondered whether she was constructing a maze or spider's web of difficulty for people to fall into. Her grasp of the realities of the social concepts was obvious. Anyone who has had anything to do with the CSA will recognise this. My first connection was when I received what in parliamentary slang are called green ink letters relating to the CSA addressed to me. I remember one individual who was convinced that the CSA was out to get him because it was run by Freemasons. That was the primary objective. How he had so offended Freemasons never became clear.
But the CSA has not worked. It has been heavy-handed. As has been said, it has become an excuse for non-compliance. We have devalued the
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I remember that my right honourable friend Charles Kennedy was once asked which vote he most regretted having cast. He said that the vote he most regretted not having cast was against the creation of the CSA. It sounded a good idea—to do something, get behind it and go forward. However, the fact of the matter is that it has failed and has created resentment. Thus, any step forward may almost have negative implications.
Then we encouraged the voluntary agreements. As I read it, the Government’s main intention is that the freed-up man hours gained from this will enable us to deal more efficiently with the new system or adaptation to make sure that maintenance is paid via enforcement. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, pointed out, those who will take advantage of this are probably those who will be the best payers anyway and those who have most to lose from court action. Those who simply abscond will probably not be affected. Those who have the most complicated and messy social and family backgrounds will not pay. There is our problem. When we go through the Bill in Committee and on Report, can we get a structure together which will enable us to deliver better? Nothing else really can be said on that, but that is what we are confronted with here. Computer systems are beyond us. Indeed, many of the systems on my own computer are beyond me. We must try to get an administrative structure, guidance and a will to help.
Everybody wishes this measure well because it is not something for which any politician can take great credit. We have got to make sure we can get the detail right. I will not go into the detail now because others have done so more eloquently than I and because I have discovered that the list of details is so long that I would never finish. However, the attitude which I mentioned must be carried forward into Committee. If it is, we may plug holes and do so with experience—we can refer to previous experience on this of a similar system that failed.
On mesothelioma— all day I have been dreading pronouncing that; have I got it right?
Lord Addington: My Lords, who says that chance will always let you down?
This is one of those things that you can say yes to. The noble Lord, Lord Dixon, raised one or two problems round it but its basic thrust must be encouraged. The secondary nature of this infection should have been dealt with and is now being dealt with. We can say yes to that. If there is some fine tuning to be done, I will certainly listen to it with interest.
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In conclusion, we wish this measure well but we are cautious. We have gone wrong before when dealing with this problem. It is a complicated matter and 100 per cent success with it is almost guaranteed not to happen. It is a case of seeing whether the measure results in slightly less failure. I hope that it at least achieves that.
1.03 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of Luton): My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who participated in this debate. This Bill deals with very important matters and that has been reflected in the style and manner of everybody who has spoken. I will seek to address each of the points raised. The general support that has been given to the Bill is appreciated by the Government but I recognise that in some respects it comes with qualifications and, to use the term used by the noble Lord, Lord Addington, is qualified with caution.
The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, said that the Bill was very mechanistic and did nothing to encourage the nuclear family to stay together. That mirrors contributions about the breadth of the proposal. I say to the noble Lord that it is focused overwhelmingly on getting child maintenance moving. Of course, there is a wider issue and I touched on how, through the information and support service, we would engage in that wider agenda but I do not believe that we should lose sight of that. The noble Lord said that the CSA has an ignominious history. However, as my noble friend Lady Hollis pointed out, it was originally set up to claw back benefit and was not focused on the contribution that child maintenance could make to tackling child poverty. I will not challenge him on the assertion that this Government inherited a system that was beginning to work because we should focus on the future.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, in case the noble Lord thinks that he is in danger of maligning me, I quoted his noble friend Lady Hollis.
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I would like to know the context of that if I am to deal further with it. The noble Lord also said that things are not getting better but we should acknowledge the progress that has been made since the operational improvement plan was put in place. Maintenance has been collected and arranged for 674,000 children, which is an increase of 77,000 since the OIP was introduced. For example, uncleared new scheme applications continue to decrease and the figure is now 128,000—the lowest figure since December 2003. In the first six months of 2007-08, £475 million of maintenance was arranged or collected—an increase on the equivalent figure last year of £441 million, so there has been progress.
The noble Lord asked about the change to Crown status. I should stress that the commission will still be an NDPB and this has no material effect on customers or relationships with Parliament. It will still be an
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The noble Lord raised the 12-month rule, which I am sure we shall debate in more detail in Committee. If parents are happy with the arrangements made through the court, we would want them to continue. However, without the 12-month rule parents would be irrevocably locked into arrangements that further down the line may no longer work or meet the needs of the children concerned, but I am sure that we shall debate that issue in more detail.
The noble Lord referred to the income threshold of 25 per cent being too high, as did my noble friend Lady Hollis. Twenty-five per cent allows serious changes in income, such as the loss of a job or a substantial change in wages, to be taken into consideration while ensuring that minor changes do not hamper the efficiency of the new system. I stress that under the new system there will be annual changes to the assessment so eventually a change in circumstances will be reflected.
The noble Lord said that this had to be fair to both parents. That is absolutely right. There is a risk that we always cast the non-resident parent, who is the father in the overwhelming number of cases, as a villain in this piece. We need to make sure through the information and support service and whatever emerges from charges—which is some way down the track and depends on what flows from regulations—that we are even-handed.
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