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I am not saying that the principles contained around the Appointments Commission are wrong. I fully understand why the noble Lord is pursuing this. If there is to be an appointed element in the future, all the various political parties have a commitment towards such a statutory Appointments Commission, but the detail of these matters needs to be considered very carefully.
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On the exclusion of hereditary Peers, I have no comment to make on the technical drafting of the clause. However, I observe that it will take many years—perhaps 60—before all the hereditary Peers leave your Lordships’ House. At the moment we have one hereditary Peer in his 30s and six in their 40s—including, happily, the noble Lords, Lord Addington, Lord de Mauley and Lord Strathclyde.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: He certainly looks to be in his 40s. I am sure that we wish them all long life. The noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, described it as quiet, gentle strangulation; it seems to me that it is very gentle indeed.
The noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, and others took us back to 1999 and the commitment made by my noble and learned friend Lord Irvine that the hereditary Peers would remain until the second stage of House of Lords reform had taken place; the 10 per cent would go only when stage two had been completed. My understanding of the House’s position is that it has in the past been made clear that it will countenance the removal of the remaining hereditary Peers only in the context of final reform. I do not believe it can be argued that the Bill could be considered to meet the terms of that pledge.
Lord Selsdon: My Lords, I would like to correct the Minister a little. If he looks in the Companion, he will find we are actually known as “elected hereditary Peers”. I would not wish to shorten our title in any way.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I stand corrected.
The noble Lord, Lord James of Blackheath, asked where the tripwire was in the Bill. The tripwire was in fact in the 1999 changes.
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, will the Minister confirm that he is reconfirming the undertaking given by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, that the hereditary Peers would remain until stage two reform was in place?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I am repeating what my noble and learned friend said then. I also reflect that the second stage has never been defined. My understanding is that the guarantee that there will be fundamental reform was the agreement reached in 1999. Indeed, in a sense that was the Cranborne tripwire.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, the Minister said he was repeating the undertaking that was given. Was he confirming it?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: Yes, my Lords.
The Bill provides for permanent leave of absence, including by means of failure to attend, and for cessation of membership of the House in cases where a Peer is found guilty of a serious offence or offences. The intentions here are entirely sensible and would need to be dealt with in any wide-ranging reform. However, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, that we need to look at the practical implications of the proposed
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There is a slightly different position with regard to Justices of the Supreme Court. Under the current provisions of Clause 12(1) of the Bill, judges would be likely to be deemed—
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, it is not just a question of the Supreme Court. If you read the wretched Bill you find it applies elsewhere, such as Togoland.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I am sure that is a most important point that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, will wish to consider. He might also want to look at the way the Bill has been drafted to ensure that, where the position is so clearly legitimate, they ought not to have to come before a committee to plead their cause.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, that a response was sent to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. I understand that the commission reviewed its policy on residency in 2005 and now declines to vet any nominee who is not resident in the UK for tax purposes.
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that. Has the response been published? I am afraid I have not seen it. Will he undertake to publish it if it has not been?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I do not know whether the response has been published. I am quite happy to let him have a copy of it.
I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, has found my comments helpful. In any reform, were it an interim reform as the noble Lord suggests or a more fundamental reform, the matters and the practical details that we have debated today would have to be considered. Whatever our views on whether it is wise to allow the noble Lord’s Bill to progress, our discussion and detailed consideration are extremely valuable.
The Government’s formal position on the Bill is as I stated it when we debated the noble Lord’s Bill in July: that, as with all Private Members’ Bills that go through your Lordships’ House, the Government will adopt a neutral position. The Government will be constructive in responding to amendments that noble Lords put forward. I hope that I have demonstrated that approach today in commenting in detail on the noble Lord’s Bill.
We do not know what shape the Bill will be in if and when it leaves your Lordships’ House. It is certainly not in my gift to offer government time for it in another place. However, the Government’s efforts are focused on comprehensive reform. I know that noble
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Lord Tyler: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for allowing me to intervene. Will he assure us that those draft clauses, or a draft Bill if it develops, will be put before a Joint Committee of both Houses so that we can minimise the amount of misunderstanding about the way in which both Houses operate?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I cannot give an absolute commitment, but we would try to see that Parliament had as much scrutiny as possible. I certainly agree with the noble Lord that the more Members from both Houses are able to discuss these matters together, the more likely it is that we will achieve a sensible, reasonable and practical outcome.
The intention of the Government is for the outcome of the discussions, in the White Paper and in consideration of draft clauses, to be put to the electorate as a manifesto commitment at the next general election. We have said that we would hope that the other main parties included similar commitments in their manifestos. I know that that noble Lord, Lord Baker, with all his experience, was doubtful of major reform for at least another 20 years. I am more optimistic. The vote of the Commons was historic. It allows us to establish a real platform to produce a White Paper which has the opportunity of getting support among the political parties and which will bring the second stage of reform to your Lordships’ House.
That is the way that we need to go forward. I thank again the noble Lord, Lord Steel, for allowing us to debate these matters in detail, and I look forward to Committee, where we will no doubt discuss in ever-loving detail every consideration in today’s Bill.
2.15 pm
Lord Steel of Aikwood: My Lords, since at the end of the last debate I was so critical of the Minister, let me say right away that I am extremely grateful for the constructive way in which he has commented on the Bill. In the time left to me, I do not think that he would expect me to respond to all the points that he made—but let me pick up just two.
The Minister suggested that guidelines for appointment to the House should be subject to affirmative rather
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On the Minister’s reference to the section of the Bill dealing with those who might be put out of the House but have good reason not to be, it was not intended in the Bill—although other Members have made reference to this, too—that people should come before a committee to plead their case. That was not the intention at all. It was intended that those who have a genuine occupation elsewhere, as a Law Lord or whatever, will automatically be excluded from the provision of the Bill that would otherwise make them leave the House. I am happy to give that reassurance; if we need to alter the Bill to make it clear in that regard, let us do that. I have been in correspondence with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope and Craighead, on behalf of the Law Lords, and given him that assurance as well.
Secondly, I do not at all resent the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, teasing me—I have teased him often enough on this subject. He asked me how many people had been involved in my appointment to this place, and the answer is one: Mr John Major. However, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, because I always have to reassure my Whips’ Office that I am not here as a working Peer. I describe myself as a “dissolute honour”. All of us have different contributions to make to this place, and I pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd-Webber, as a very valuable one. The number of speeches that noble Lords make here, which is what the press like to talk about, is not a proper measure of the contribution that Members of this House make to our work here. I think we can all agree on that.
I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in a very constructive and good-humoured debate. In particular, I reassure those who made constructive suggestions of amendments to the Bill that we shall be open to those amendments in Committee, as we have already demonstrated by the fact that so many changes have been made to the Bill in response to the July debate. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, gave the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, and me rather a back-handed compliment when he said that the Bill was no more badly put together than the average government Bill. That may or may not be so—but we will look favourably on constructive amendments in Committee.
On the observations of some of the hereditary Peers who were worried about the undertaking given back in 1999—and we have just had another exchange on this subject—it is noticeable that they latch on to one part of what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, said. I refer to the volume of Hansard of 11 May 1999, where the noble and learned Lord said:
“I make it absolutely plain that stage two reform will take place, and when it does the hereditary Peers who remain ... will cease to be Members of this House”.—[Official Report, 11/5/99; col. 1092.]
That is, perhaps, a less palatable part of the undertaking. My Bill does nothing to remove the hereditary Peers.
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Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: My Lords, I would have said exactly that if I had had time.
Lord Steel of Aikwood: Fine, my Lords, but the point that I am making is that my Bill ought to be welcomed by the hereditary Peers, as I acknowledge the activity that they conduct in this House. I am only saying that in the 21st century it is quite wrong that we should continue to have a system whereby people can enter into the British Parliament by the process of heredity. The Bill will bring that to an end. That is an important principle.
If I had to select one part of the Bill as having more impact on the future character of this House than any other, it would be Part 3, which deals with leave of absence. That could be the biggest change in the way in which we conduct ourselves here. Let us be blunt: at the present time, the whole culture and ethos of this place is that we all stay here until we drop. None of us volunteers to leave early because we would let the side down—our party or the Cross-Benchers would lose a Member. That is the current state of play. But if we had a scheme whereby, after a certain age—
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords—
Lord Steel of Aikwood: My Lords, forgive me, but I am in mid-sentence, may I just go on a little? I will finish this point and then I will give way to the noble Lord.
The point that I am arguing is that if we had a scheme whereby, after a certain age or period of service in this place, people could leave with dignity knowing that they were making way for a new intake from their own party or group, that would introduce a completely different attitude into the House and would deal with the case mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, of Lord Callaghan. Lord Callaghan was a regular attender here until old age overtook him. I am quite certain that he would have taken advantage of such a provision had it existed. I give way to the noble Lord who is determined to intervene yet again.
He is not going to intervene; good.
In conclusion, as others have observed, the arithmetic in this debate was different from that in July. Of the Back-Bench speeches, I counted some 28 in favour of the Bill and nine against. That is understandable because this time the Bill is going forward seriously. The last time was just a debate at the fag-end of the Session. However, I noticed that those who opposed the Bill came from completely opposite ends of the spectrum. There was the sight of the noble Lord, Lord Richard, and the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, both distinguished servants of this House, linked together in opposition to the Bill—one is madly keen to have an elected House tomorrow and the other is wholly resistant to any change, particularly anything that might affect hereditary Peers, yet they are united in opposition to this reasonable Bill.
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I have permission from the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, to repeat a conversation that we had the other day when he was also expressing some doubt about my Bill. His solution was very interesting: he said that every Member of this House should be created an hereditary Peer. In that way, the debates on House of Lords reform would go on as they have done for the past century. There is almost that element in the opposition to the Bill.
I will seriously respond to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe. I can truthfully say that in all the discussions that we have had in the group promoting the Bill, I have never heard any discussion or suggestion of blocking or interfering with government legislation if we do not get our way. That may have happened in the past, I do not know, but certainly there was no such suggestion.
If we can get this Bill through this House in, as the Minister said, a tidy and correct form and it emerges cleanly, there is a chance that it might carry in the House of Commons. The one thing that that House has is some common sense. As the noble Lord, Lord Baker, said, we cannot be certain that we will get the more fundamental reforms for which they voted for 20 years. He may be wrong about that, but nobody knows—not even the Government know whether he is right and certainly the Commons does not know.
I end with the analogy that the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, gave us about Alice and the jam; that what we are being offered—
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords—
Lord Steel of Aikwood: No, my Lords, I am finishing now.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, the purpose of this House is not to send Bills to another place. The purpose of this House is to construe the merits of the Bill. The noble Lord’s construction of Clause 10 of the Bill raises serious legal objections.
Lord Steel of Aikwood: My Lords, we can debate all that in Committee. I hope that by Third Reading the House will vote so that we can determine the position for or against the Bill.
I end by picking up the reference of the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, to Alice and her jam. We are being asked to consider taking a teaspoonful of jam today as against being offered a whole jar of jam—shelves of jam—not tomorrow but at some indefinite time in the future. That is not a sustainable argument to put against the very sensible measures in this Bill. I now invite the House to give it a Second Reading.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
- House adjourned at 2.25 pm.
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