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What I found surprising in the 20 July debate was how little regard was paid to the Commons votes for 80 or 100 per cent elections, although there was more mention of that today. It is true that some people have argued that there was tactical voting. But not one Peer—I underline this—either then or today mentioned that MPs had voted 375 to 196 against a 100 per cent appointed House. There has been no mention of any tactical voting in that vote. I do not believe that there was. I believe that was a true reflection of the feeling at the other end. Therefore, my first question to the noble Lord, Lord Steel—I pick up some of the points that the noble Lord, Lord James, has just made—is, in the light of that vote, how does he believe that the Bill could conceivably be carried in the Commons? I take it for granted, of course, that it will be carried here. Does he believe that at some stage the Government will accept and support his Bill, even without amendments to provide for an elected Chamber? I would be grateful
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My fear is that the way this Bill is being propelled will bring us into direct conflict with the Commons. There are already portents for conflict with the Government. I hope that I am wrong and I look to the noble Lord, Lord Steel, for reassurances that I am misreading the position. The best reassurance I could get from him would be confirmation that, ultimately, he and his supporters will respect the supremacy of the other place on a Bill on House of Lords reform which introduces elections to this Chamber.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe of Aberavon, referred to the consensus reached in 1999 and feels and hopes that we may be able to get there. He, of course, was not here then. But for those of us who were, at least on these Benches, it felt more like blackmail than consensus being reached at that stage when we were forced into a compromise that on these Benches we were very unhappy about. That consensus, or compromise—or whatever it might be called—was achieved through open threats that Peers were prepared to disrupt and derail the Government’s legislative programme.
I have heard talk that if we are unable to get consensus some Peers, if faced with a move towards election, will take on board the idea that was used in 1999 and could endeavour to derail legislative business to oppose the change to elections. I hope that I am wrong and that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, and his colleagues will give me full assurances that such an incident is not likely to be repeated this time round.
1.10 pm
Lord Northbrook: My Lords, looking at the Bill introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, overall, I approve of the establishment of a statutory Appointments Commission, Clause 12 excluding from the House Peers who do not attend during a Session, the facility for a permanent leave of absence and measures to exclude Peers who have committed a serious criminal offence. However, amendments are necessary to all the above. The Appointments Commission proposed in the Bill would do little to take the influence of the Prime Minister and political parties out of the appointments process. Why, in Clause 2(2), should the four members—who are commendably not to be affiliated to any political party—be nominated by the Speaker of the House of Commons and the Lord Speaker? They should, in my view, be nominated by another independent body.
I would like to see an additional clause to make the commission mindful in the selection process that there should be a balanced House in terms of wide expertise in, for instance, industry, commerce, finance, law and the arts. That should be a major criterion for the non-political appointments. Clause 5(2) is too vague, mentioning only “conspicuous merit” and,
I declare an interest as a hereditary Peer. I cannot support Clause 10 on the removal of the by-election procedure. I will not bore the House by repeating the
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The Bill leaves a significant number of questions unanswered on the composition of the House, including how to control the size of the House, notably if political support were to fluctuate over short periods. There would be a risk that the House would grow rather than contract, even allowing for leave of absence. There is the question of how to determine the balance between the Government and third and other parties. What would be the size, as opposed to the relative balance, of the government and opposition parties?
I now turn to the clauses on permanent leave of absence. When a Member seeks permanent leave of absence or dies, should there not be an automatic top-up procedure rather than one that just leaves the matter to being dealt with once a year under Clause 8(1)? It is still unclear that Clause 15 is not retrospective. I find Clause 17 rather bizarre. If such a person was renominated, would he not be automatically excluded, even if his appointment was confirmed?
Overall, here we have a Bill that has good points but which needs careful examination in Committee. On the other hand, the Government’s insistence on ploughing on with proposals for a fully or partially elected House will only lead to trouble. It is naive to believe that, just because there is consensus on the Front-Bench working group of all the parties, the Back Benches here will sit idly by. I welcomed the letter received in July from the Leader of the House inviting Back-Bench Members to suggest ways of having input into the cross-party group. The only trouble is that nothing concrete has resulted from it.
In conclusion, there still remains the key issue that by far the majority here does not want the Government’s proposal of a fully or mainly elected House. The current House, which we have by default, is working very well. The Cunningham report stated that, if we had an elected House, there would need to be a review of its powers. An elected House of Lords will wish to have a stronger role in the legislature. Is that what the Government want?
1.14 pm
Viscount Eccles: My Lords, I admired the powerful speech of the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, but is he not a long way in front of the game? There is to be a White Paper, a manifesto and an election. Then we will see what happens. Whatever happens is some way down the road. At that time, we shall have to address the issues that the noble Lord raises and we may, of course, be addressing them in different circumstances.
I support the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Steel, because it seems a completely sensible tidying-up operation. As many noble Lords have said, it is incremental. That argument was followed strongly by
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I do not follow the pre-emption school of thought. I follow the noble Lord, Lord Norton, in thinking that those in that school not only do not have confidence in their own arguments but lack the confidence that they will be led by people who will be able to put the argument sufficiently strongly. In my submission, they do not want to lose some of the arguments that they currently have at their command. Of course, this Bill would remove some of those arguments.
On the hereditary peerage, I say to my noble friends Lord Ferrers and Lord Trefgarne that I am, for my sins, a hereditary Peer—or is it the sins of my father? It was suggested that life Peers got here because they had friends in high places. I assume that my father had some friends in high places. We need to remember that we hereditary Peers are an endangered species—Viscounts even more so—not only in this House, but as a whole. I wonder whether—
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, the noble Viscount said that he thought that he came here because his father had friends in high places. I thought that I came here because my father had some merit.
Viscount Eccles: Well, my Lords, of course circumstances differ.
In thinking about this subject, are we not in danger of imposing disabilities? We have a long history of disabilities. Does no hereditary Peer hope to find that his son or even his daughter will become a life Peer? If the criteria of the commission are,
is there no one in the hereditary peerage, or among the sons and daughters—as we all get older—who might merit being brought into this House?
Finally, institutions, of which this is one of the greatest, have a capacity to become rather inward-looking and to think of things from their own perspective rather than putting themselves outside or accepting even the judgment of someone else outside—it might be the people—about what works or does not work in the public interest. If we accept the judgment of my noble friend Lord Baker of Dorking, we could justifiably be asked the question from around the country, “Why did they not try to do something about it themselves?”. If it is likely, as I judge, that more fundamental reform will take quite a long time, not to be willing to make a move in the right direction on our own account is a great mistake. I support the Bill.
1.20 pm
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, my support for the Bill, viewed as a consensus Bill, is partly based on what I hear out there among the public: support for this Bill and the principles behind it. If I was doing a research project, I might have reached thematic saturation in a qualitative study by now.
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I have had the honour of representing the Lord Speaker in Wales, but have also spoken at lots of other occasions—principally in Wales—and it is on that experience that I have based my views about how people view us. I am surprised at the interest in our work and how people view us in a positive light. Some consistent comments come out time and again. The quality of our debate is remarked upon. The porters in the hospital where I work have been watching our debates and those of the other place, and commented on the quality of debate on issues that I was not even aware we were debating. They are impressed at the high level of expertise represented here. They are glad that this House asks questions to hold the Government to account without the combative shows that occur in the other place. They are aware that this House is extremely effective in scrutinising legislation.
However, there are other views. People feel strongly that those convicted of a serious crime should not sit in this House after serving prolonged periods in prison. The hereditary principle is viewed as an anachronism. Honours have been tainted by finance, and the arguments are strong for an independent appointments commission to appoint independent Peers or scrutinise recommendations for all new Peers, irrespective of party affiliation. Many arguments have already been rehearsed.
I remind the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, that I personally got here by applying for the post. I carefully filled out the forms. I still do not understand why we are selected, but I have enjoyed it enormously and hope to contribute. Many other speakers from these Benches came through the same process of an appointments commission. There are strong views out there about non-attenders. The discretionary section over leave of absence allows for examples given by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, and also for accident or illness which may be severe but from which recovery is anticipated. People in Wales, who have another layer of voting compared to those in England, have voting and party politics fatigue. That is why they do not turn out, they tell me. They often do not know what their different representatives actually represent. I find that worrying.
Outside this House, I am hearing support for how we currently work and the functions we perform. The Bill before us will correct anomalies in the way in which we are currently constituted, and will allow us to continue to maximum efficacy.
1.22 pm
Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, it has often been said that everything that can be said has been said, but not by everybody. I realise that I come at the end of the day, and we are all looking forward to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd-Webber—principally, of course, because his is the last speech before the wind-ups, as well as other merits.
I have been in the House now for more than 20 years, and in the other place for 10. My remarks are firmly based upon touch and feel. I first congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Steel, who I have known as a friend for more than 20 years. His supporters think that they are doing a good service. I shall say why I believe that that is not the case.
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When I was the Opposition Chief Whip, there was a change in 1997. I pick up on the words of the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, who pointedly asked why, if this change is now needed, it was not attempted during the 18 years when the party opposite could have pushed through any legislation they liked. In 1997, the Whip was taken by 485 Conservative Members and 116 Labour Members. When the compromise was reached two years later, based upon the hereditary representation, there were 425 Conservative hereditaries and 18 Labour. So the Conservatives got 42 hereditaries and Labour got two. That was a situation that Members opposite—I am speaking directly to that Bench—were happy to sustain and support, and in my view many of those who support this Bill do so from the stance that they are not in favour of any elected element in this House.
All my life, and for more than 60 years as a member of the Labour Party, I was in favour of the abolition of the House of Lords—the House of Lords as I knew it and as it behaved. Of course, there has been change and I note, in particular, that many of my noble colleagues who were members of the Labour Party before they came here take a diametrically opposed view. However, I am old Labour and very set in my ways, and I have not changed my view that, if the House of Lords is to be part of the 21st century, it has to be radically altered.
I am quite relaxed about whether the Bill makes progress but what will be its impact if it does? The diametric parliamentary situation is that the other House is in support of either a wholly elected or 80 per cent elected House and this House is not. That is not an unusual situation, but why take the time to go through the process when we know, as the noble Lord, Lord Baker, said, that it will not be resolved this year or next? If the Bill is agreed to here, it will face a hostile reaction in the other place. Never mind the Government’s reaction—we will hear that from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in a moment—but down there a majority of the people who are interested in voting will be opposed to it. So we have a recipe for delay and procrastination and, so far as I am concerned, I do not want anything to do with it.
The noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, and others have traded on the fact that when the Bill was debated last time, 46 out of 49 speakers were in favour of it. I look forward to the day when they are prepared to admit that in this debate the arithmetic has radically altered. I sense that, unless the present machinery can produce something that we can get our teeth into next year, this will be an exercise in futility, and I am against it.
1.27 pm
Lord Lloyd-Webber: My Lords, I freely admit that my attendance in the House is not as great as I should like it to be. However, I put it to your Lordships that, when I was sounded out—I think that is probably the best way of putting it—about whether I might accept the great honour of being invited into this House, my concerns were that I had a considerable outside career, I was 48 and there was nothing very much that
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I realise that the House’s character has changed considerably since 1997, when I first came here. Of course, I can see that a very large number of working Peers are here now and that the majority of new Peers have been created as exactly that. However, I hope that noble Lords will understand the view of someone who believes greatly in the extraordinary institutions that this country has, by some osmosis, found and created.
Perhaps I may add one thing. It is very important that, when considering the Bill, the House reflects on whether there is room within it for people who may not be able to attend as much as they would like but, when they do attend, they do so with some kind of passion because they hope to offer something in the particular field about which they care deeply through working in it. Therefore, I hope that this does not simply become a House of elected semi-professional and professional politicians, because that is not what it should only be about.
1.30 pm
Lord Addington: My Lords, the length of this debate and the number of speakers is interesting for somebody who has resisted the opportunity to talk about House of Lords reform for a number of years, and has found himself having to catch this pass today. As the noble Lord, Lord Graham, suggested, the scores are becoming more even; the ticks versus crosses—my scientific way of checking the score—are starting to balance out.
My noble friend Lord Steel has initiated a debate on what people on both sides are thinking. A few of them have both ticks and crosses in my assessment of what they were saying. There are pros and cons. I have always started from the premise that I have signed up to a programme that says there should be an elected second Chamber. On several occasions—with gritted teeth—I have voted for an elected second Chamber. If the Bill puts off that process, or even if we suspect that it will, we must be cautious of it. If it is something that could be used to delay the process, we must be cautious of it.
Political will and drive are also required. The noble Lord, Lord Baker, with considerable political craft, pointed out that the realpolitik is that this may not be happening soon; it may not be happening at all in the cycle of the current Government. We do not know what the next election will bring, or what will happen. We are in interesting times once again. Everybody who assumes they will not win or will not lose should place a hedging bet.
We must ensure that we carry on the agenda so that the Chamber can develop. If we are using the Bill as a way of stalling that and patting ourselves on the back, we must think twice. We always think we are wonderful and that no one else understands us. Every interest group to which I have spoken thinks that, and we must guard against it. The House of Commons is probably the biggest offender. Whatever the vote was in the other place, undoubtedly games were being played.
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This is an opportunity for the Government to let us know what their drive is on this and how much they will give us, or whether they regard this as just another paper. I threw out a great pile of House of Lords reform papers the other day because they were irrelevant. The world had moved on. But they were all published with a great deal of concern about what was going to happen, what was not going to happen, when it would happen, and so on. Timetables that we never realistically envisaged have come and gone; they were out of date before the ink was dry. If we are having another one of those, we will not achieve very much.
The noble Lord may not be totally in control of this, but I would be interested in finding out exactly what the Government have in terms of firm plans at the moment. If they do not have firm plans, what do they regard as the impedimenta to them? Do they think they need to win a majority of a certain size in the next election? It might be realistic to hear that if the Government have only a small majority, they cannot take this on and still conduct the rest of their governance. He shakes his head now and can confirm this later. At least then we could start to form an opinion on what will happen to the Bill.
There are very few measures in the Bill with which I have any serious disagreements, although I have some about the provision relating to serious criminal offences. Several noble Lords made a small attack on it by saying that a House of expertise should have some experience. That might have a logical thrust, but it is a matter of how many months as much as anything else.
There is also the provision about permanent leave of absence. Those of us who work in this House tend to get on our high horses slightly about people who are not here often enough. The noble Lord, Lord Lloyd-Webber, referred to being in a different world and being asked to come in every now and again. That may have been the system then, and he may well have been sold a pup on it. The rest of the House gets very annoyed. We do not like that, and we feel affronted by it.
I supported the Bill introduced by my noble friend Lord Avebury to exclude hereditary Peers. We had hours of fun comparing ourselves with Old Sarum and rotten boroughs. Let us leave that where it stands.
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