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As my noble friend Lord Whitty said in a recent debate about the composition,
I am convinced that he is right and that we have a tendency to convince ourselves that because we do a great job—as, indeed, we do—the lack of democratic accountability can be justified in the 21st century. The House of Lords must look at itself much more carefully. We must adopt the principle that, one way or another, directly or indirectly, the consent of the people is required if we are to be part of the legislature.
11.20 am
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I am not in favour of the Bill, and I hope that your Lordships will allow me a few moments to say why.
I turn first to the provisions in the Bill to end the by-elections among hereditary Peers to replace any of the 92 first elected in 1999 and who sadly pass on. I believe with complete conviction that the undertaking then given by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, the then Lord Chancellor, was and remains binding upon this Labour Government in the terms in which it was given; that is, that the 92 elected hereditary Peers would remain in place until such time as the second and final stage of House of Lords reform was in place. By no stretch of the imagination does this Bill meet that requirement. Of course, I acknowledge that this Bill is introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, speaking from the Liberal Democrat Benches. But that does not absolve Her Majesty’s Government from the formal undertaking given on their behalf eight years ago.
To put it plainly, I do not believe that the 1999 Act would have passed through your Lordships’ House had the undertaking to which I have referred not been given. To go back upon that undertaking now would be an act of dishonour, with which I am certain noble Lords on the government Benches in your Lordships’ House would not wish to be associated. As I speak now, I am not informed as to the Government's detailed intentions in this matter; no doubt we shall hear more later. However, Ministers have a duty to ensure that at least that part of the Bill that does away with by-elections does not reach the statute book. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, when he comes to speak, will confirm that position.
I turn, secondly, to the provisions in the Bill which give formal statutory authority to an appointments commission which alone, it would seem, will become responsible for the appointment of Members of your
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I make no secret of the fact that I am not much in favour of a wholly or largely appointed House, whoever may be responsible for the selection. But I recognise that many noble Lords—perhaps a majority—take a different view. There is clearly no consensus as to the way forward. Let us therefore leave matters as they are until such a consensus does emerge and we can move forward with general agreement.
The Bill also includes a provision for the exclusion of those noble Lords who unhappily fall foul of the law. I do not, in principle, oppose such provisions but they ought to be set out more carefully. For example, I am not clear whether noble Lords who have been convicted in the way referred to prior to the Bill coming into effect are excluded, or whether these provisions include convictions handed down outside the United Kingdom. These clauses have clearly not been fully thought through.
I will end with some general points. Proposals for major constitutional change which will fundamentally alter the House of Lords or any other of the great institutions of state should come forward in a Public Bill introduced by the Government following proper consultation. This Bill is nothing of the sort. It is, I fear, an amateurish approach to an overwhelmingly important issue and simply will not do. I very much hope that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, will withdraw it.
11.25 am
Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, I am rather regretful about following that speech, which I feel hankers back to the old days, which have been forgotten by most of us—to good advantage. I wish to see whatever package of reform comes forward include provision for modernising the House of Commons. Their vote is, to some extent, an attempt to push the reform agenda to us while leaving their own stables uncleared.
I also rise to support my noble friend Lord Steel. I represent a part of the party which does not agree, and was not willing to be dragooned through the Lobbies in the last vote, with the three-line Whip. A number of us opposed it. On matters such as this, Whips are not appropriate.
Chiefly, I want to say that I was talking to a group of people last Monday about the functioning of the House of Lords. The Lord Speaker has done a tremendous job in improving the presentation of this Chamber to the public. Many of us try hard to go out and explain things. When we do so, we find a clear understanding and support among people for what we do. It was perhaps best illustrated when I went—I am not a regular attender of such things—to a regional party gathering. Following my report on the House of Lords was a motion on the agenda to abolish it and burn us, and all sorts of things. When I
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I hope that the House gives every support to the Lord Speaker in continuing to push forward that educational programme so that, whenever a decision is made, it is made on the basis of fact, not pictures in the newspapers of people in full-bottomed wigs sitting in front of the Queen in ermine robes. That is the impression that certain cartoonists give of the place. That is not right; there is valuable work done here. I think particularly of the Climate Change Bill, the speeches on which were of the highest order—if any Member of the House has not read them, I suggest that they do so.
I hope that this Bill tidies up some anomalies, removes some of the criticism, and that the Government, when they bring forward their comprehensive package of reform, regards it as a reform of Parliament and not simply of the House of Lords.
11.28 am
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: My Lords, in 1999 we were promised that a full and final reform of this House would eventually happen. This is a grave constitutional matter unsuitable for a Private Member's Bill, particularly one introduced on a Friday afternoon, when many of your Lordships have gone home for the weekend. It should be resolved by a Government Bill introduced in prime time, the contents of which should have been arrived at, if possible, by all-party consensus. If it is not done in such a manner, what guarantee have we, should it pass, that it will be accepted by the Government, by the opposition parties and the country as stage two of the reform which was started in 1999? For that reason alone, I am totally opposed to the Bill.
Even Part 1, which could have created an appointments commission which would have been truly independent of prime ministerial patronage, signally fails to do so. Why should the Speaker of another place have anything to do with it? Only four members have to be privy counsellors. I suggest that the appointments commission should be a committee of the Privy Council, the majority of the members being also Members of this House; then they might know something about what they were doing.
So far as I am concerned, Part 2 is not acceptable, and here I have an interest to declare as an hereditary Peer. The 92 hereditary Peers were supposed to remain here until stage two of House of Lords reform had been completed. The noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, has reminded us of the undertaking given in 1999 by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg. The noble and learned Lord went on to say:
“The 10 per cent will go when stage two has taken place and their presence is a guarantee that stage two will take place”.—[Official Report, 11/5/99; col. 1092.]
That was confirmed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, only last March, when he said:
“The noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, reminded us that we agreed to the keeping of the hereditaries until stage 2 was in place. We agreed that in the White Paper and stand by it”.—[Official Report, 13/3/07; col. 722.]
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Now, as I said, what guarantee have we that, if the Bill were to receive Royal Assent, the Government, who I believe are neutral regarding it, would be satisfied that the reforms embodied in it constituted stage two? Absolutely none, my Lords. In that case we, the hereditary Peers, would no longer be here as such to annoy the Government like a cloud of midges and to torment them by our very existence—an existence that they had a manifesto commitment to get rid of.
Much is continually said about the ludicrousness of the Peers’ elections. That is something that I do not deny, but the principal thing that is ludicrous about them is that the electorate consists only of the hereditary Peers so that, in the case of Labour and Liberal Democrat elections, just one or two Peers vote for a whole list of candidates. That would be simply remedied by making the electorate all the Peers in the relevant party or the entire House, which, with hindsight, is what I now believe should always have been the case. However, for any of us hereditary Peers to be party to abolishing the elections sticks in my gullet. It is tantamount to turning round and saying, “I’m alright Jack, and to hell with you!”, to our erstwhile colleagues, who were so meanly and ungraciously sacked in 1999 and whose only hope of either getting back themselves or their heirs doing so is to be elected.
I think that Part 3, Clause 12, is mean and short-sighted and that it will deprive the House of a lot of experience and expertise.
Turning to Part 4, it is a pity to be so sanctimonious about Peers who have served jail sentences. As the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, said, they have paid their forfeit and should be allowed back into the game. In any case, this is not a matter for primary legislation. I believe the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, will say a word about that.
Altogether, I think that this is a dreadful Bill and I shall join others in attempting to amend it at a later stage. As it is, I hope that I do not have to leave for the airport before the winding-up speeches are finished.
11.33 am
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, it is a privilege to follow the noble Lady and I agree with everything that she said. It saves a little time on my speech because she said it better than I could have done.
As has already been said, there is no consensus on the way forward and, at the moment, the Government are seeking that consensus. This Bill was rejected in substance by the Government in the Statement of 19 July. It is not a gift horse, other than a Trojan gift: it is but an albatross hanging around the neck of government to pre-empt stage 2 and renege on the Cranborne deal; it hangs around the neck of your Lordships’ House as a grievous trespass upon the convention that we shall remain master of our own procedures; and it curtails the exercise of the royal prerogative to grant peerages for life.
In saying that, I do not call into question in any sense the integrity of the noble Lords and Members of the other place who got together to devise and support
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The object of this speech is to give notice of my intention to oppose the Question whether Clauses 10 and 11 to 17 shall stand part of the Bill. The tripart intendment of the Bill is flawed. As to Part 1, which has been spoken to by my noble friend Lord Ferrers, there is no provision to determine the balance and size of the House, and no reason has been given why the present Appointments Commission could not in fact do what it is proposed the statutory commission should do.
Part 2 reneges on the Cranborne deal, albeit that the criteria for stage 2 reform cannot be met. This is well-trodden ground to be revisited on another occasion.
I turn to Parts 3 and 4. Contrary to the convention, Clauses 11 to 17, which are so drafted that you cannot get at them to amend them in the ordinary way, provide that our domestic procedures shall be ordained by primary legislation. This House has the conventional entitlement under Standing Orders to make provision for permanent leave of absence on or without application; for the deprivation of membership, also on conviction of a serious criminal offence; and to establish a fair regime—three noble Lords have spoken about that—for the implementation of both under the aegis of the Privileges Committee, on which, so far as I am aware, there is no reason why the four Law Lords should not be enabled to sit. My time is up.
11.38 am
Baroness Whitaker: My Lords, the second version of the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Steel, would implement some essential principles for a modern legislature.
First, an Appointments Commission for such an important task should surely be statutory, and it must be right to set out criteria for eligibility, including a regard for the diversity of our population. The present non-statutory commission has already honoured that regard with distinction. I am not so sure about the resonance of the term “merit” as a criterion—not of course that your Lordships are not all meritorious people—but the implication of deserving a reward moves away from the responsibilities of a working Member of a second Chamber, and I hope any commission would focus on aptitude and experience for the task. In that connection, I am disappointed that such membership is still termed “peerage” in the Bill. “Peerage” has a fuzzy hereditary association.
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It is that sense of a fuzzy edge which makes me think that while there are steps forward in this Bill we need to have a bigger picture in mind. In introducing his first Bill the noble Lord said, if I may quote him:
“I do not ask to seeThe distant scene; one step enough for me”.—[Official Report, 20/7/07; col. 487.]I submit that it is essential to have a firmer grasp of the distant scene if we are to make the right steps towards it. That distant scene will include proper reform—election of at least 80 per cent. The noble Lord’s Bill safeguards an independent 20 per cent of Members, and I hope that this will be fully considered by those drafting the complete reform. It goes comfortably with the diversity imperative.
I do not think we should run scared of the big picture in the distant scene. It will not go away just because we deny it; but nor would it rock our foundations. Indeed, I suggest that party lists would probably yield people very similar to your Lordships. Why would the parties want to have a different kind of animal? Indeed, they might, if similar explicit criteria were rather more firmly embedded in the system, produce an even more luminary membership, if that were possible. It is difficult to imagine, I know. I also think that there is a case for allowing the party leaders to influence the composition of any party lists, at least by drawing up a long list for a commission to look at.
The big picture requires consideration of much wider factors, and in much more depth. It requires consideration, for instance, of matters like the details of workable balance and control which Dr Meg Russell set out so interestingly in one of my noble friend the Leader’s seminars, and, of course, all the essentials of a second Chamber which has a democratic colour, role, powers, conventions—even that Members themselves could vote in a general election, which is, rather surprisingly, not in the noble Lord’s Bill.
The prospect of change to a truly democratic basis has caused consternation among some of your Lordships. But we now take for granted many democratic elements which were regarded as outrageous in their time, such as equal application of the law—the Levellers—and secret ballots—the Chartists—to name but two. I wonder if those of your Lordships who fear the distant scene shiver in the words of TS Eliot:
“They all go into the dark ...The captains, merchant bankers, eminent men of letters,The generous patrons of art, the statesmen and the rulers, Distinguished civil servants, chairmen of many committees, Industrial lords and petty contractors, all go into the dark”.But, not necessarily so. Those who add value to the legislature can still be with us under a new democratic dispensation. I therefore hope that the best measures in the noble Lord’s Bill will be taken forward instead as part of much wider provisions.
11.45 am
Viscount Astor: My Lords, I remain here to be the grit in the oyster for reform, not just to ensure that change comes, but to ensure that when reform does come, the power of this House is not reduced and can still hold the Government to account.
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This Bill seeks to pre-empt any reform, and, incidentally, if passed will give the Labour Party and the Lib Dems more Peers in this House and my party and the Cross Benches fewer. If it had been enacted in 1999 we would have 10 fewer colleagues, but I am sure that the Prime Minister would have carried on appointing Peers to the Government Benches.
The concept of an appointed House has been rejected by another place. It is not the policy of the three major parties. This House is, after all, a political Chamber. Business is managed by the parties and their whips. With respect to the Cross Benches, if both Opposition Front Benches went home early, business would collapse.
I agree with noble Lords who say that this Chamber works. It works as well as it ever did. The Bill seeks to improve some aspects, such as leave of absence, size of membership and suspension for those guilty of a serious offence. However, I note that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, is content for Members of this House to take temporary leave of absence if they sit in the European Parliament, but not if they sit in either the Scottish Parliament or the Welsh Assembly. Why should not the rules be the same for all three? Perhaps the noble Lord might address that when he winds up.
The hereditary by-election system was supposed to last only a few years. Whose fault is that? The Government must take full responsibility for this bizarre electoral system continuing.
For change to be accepted it has to come from another place. I believe that it will come only after the next general election when both parties will have to spell out their plans in their respective manifestos. We should not try to pre-empt that. All parties favour an elected second Chamber. It would be a second Chamber that is rather different from the one now; it would have different conventions, different powers and probably a different role. Would it work better? Who knows? Is the country clamouring for an elected second Chamber? The answer must be no, not at the moment. Equally, neither have they endorsed the concept of an appointed second Chamber. They do agree that there should be a check on the Executive and a revising second Chamber with power to delay and make the Government of the day think again.
We were promised another stage of reform by this Government, by the then Lord Chancellor, his word given as a Privy Councillor—so far a hollow promise. The Bill has a number of things wrong with it. It enshrines the status quo; it is a slight benefit to the Lib Dems. But the most important thing is that it lets the Government off the hook; it lets both major parties off the hook. It comes in the middle of yet another consultation process. We do not know what the Government’s response will be but we can guess. They will take the views expressed in this debate into account very seriously during their consultation process to produce yet another White Paper. However, if recent remarks from a former No. 10 official are true, they suggest that the Government would like to do away with the second Chamber altogether, and have only one House—the House of Commons.
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The Bill pre-empts what is generally understood to be the business of government in another place. It would deprive the electorate of a chance to vote for the party which offered the way forward for constitutional reform. The Bill perhaps could be re-titled, “The Life Peers Rescue Bill”. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Steel, for allowing one lifeboat for the hereditary Peers to clamber into.
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