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House of Lords
Thursday, 26 April 2007.
The House met at eleven o’clock: the LORD SPEAKER on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of St Albans.
Introduction: Lord Hameed
Lord Hameed—Khalid Hameed, Esquire, CBE, having been created Baron Hameed, of Hampstead in the London Borough of Camden, for life—Was, in his robes, introduced between the Lord Dholakia and the Lord Janner of Braunstone.
Fuel Poverty
11.13 am
Lord Palmer asked Her Majesty’s Government:
In light of recent energy price rises, what steps they are taking to assist those pensioners and low-income families who are experiencing fuel poverty.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Truscott): My Lords, eradicating fuel poverty is of key importance. Warm Front, with its equivalents in the devolved Administrations, is the Government's key programme to tackle the problem, providing free central heating and installation measures to qualifying households. The decent home standards and the energy efficiency commitment also help to improve the energy efficiency of vulnerable households. In addition, winter fuel payments, pension credit and tax credits have been introduced to improve the incomes of vulnerable households.
Lord Palmer: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I should be interested to know why, despite all those efforts, the number of people having to choose between food and fuel has more than doubled in the past two years, according to a recent report.
Lord Truscott: My Lords, the fact is that the number of vulnerable households suffering fuel poverty in 2004 remained the same as in 2003, down from 4 million in 1996 to about 1 million in 2004. The noble Lord is correct to say that there has been an increase in the number of those suffering fuel poverty in the past year or so, largely because of the increase in energy prices. The figures will be published this summer, but the Government are urgently tackling the issue and will be referring to it in the forthcoming White Paper on energy.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, will the Minister indicate what percentage has been added to the bills of people in low-income households by the Government’s requirement to cover the country in windmills? Would it not be a good idea if it was clearly stated on consumers’ bills how much has been added as a result of the renewables obligation, which the Government have imposed?
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Lord Truscott: My Lords, the expansion of renewables, which has doubled under this Government, is primarily to tackle climate change, and will be of benefit to the entire country and will help to save the future of our planet. It is true that the renewables obligation, to which the noble Lord refers, will cost something like £1 billion by 2010, but it will also support the emergence of further renewables technology and the renewables industry, which will be of great benefit to the country.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, does the Minister agree that substantial amounts were added, and are still being added, to every bill as a result of the nuclear legacy? Will he also inform the House how long it will take under the current Warm Front policy to insulate the homes of all those—namely, 750,000 people in the most severe need—who qualify even for the British Gas essentials programme?
Lord Truscott: My Lords, there is a large job of work to be done, but the Warm Front scheme has already benefited 1.4 million households in the country since 2000. Obviously, more households require support, which they will get. The Government have put something like £800 million into the scheme, which will run until 2008. Energy suppliers, as the noble Baroness said, are making their own initiatives and introducing social tariffs to help vulnerable people, and those are to be welcomed.
Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, what is the point of setting targets for the gas and electricity suppliers to help families in fuel poverty if they are denied the information to know who they are?
Lord Truscott: My Lords, the noble Lord makes a valid point. We are working on sharing data, but we must bear in mind issues such as the Data Protection Act and the protection of individuals’ information. We are, however, working on sharing data between government departments to ensure that we target better those who need support. We are working actively to achieve that.
Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, is the Minister aware that there are other needy groups besides pensioners who are particularly hard hit by energy price rises? The disabled, for example, suffer disproportionately from fuel poverty. I have been made aware of young, disabled people who need to heat their home for as much as 20 hours a day. Does the Minister share my concern that the minimum age limit for the winter fuel allowance denies help to many who need it most, and will he undertake to look into this situation and consider what more could be done to help this particularly vulnerable group?
Lord Truscott: My Lords, the noble Lord is correct that disabled people are a vulnerable group to whom we wish to increase our support. Winter fuel payments, as he mentioned, are paid only to those aged 60 or over. We are, however, giving support to
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Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, is the Minister aware of the deep concern of organisations such as Save the Children about the effect of fuel poverty on very low-income families? Is he considering consulting extensively Save the Children and other organisations to see exactly what their recommendation is?
Lord Truscott: My Lords, we consult non-governmental organisations all the time on these issues and specifically on tackling child poverty. The target is to eradicate child poverty by 2020. It is one of the most ambitious targets that any Government have set for themselves. We have already made the biggest improvement of any country in the European Union, and, since 1997, 600,000 fewer children have been living in poverty under this Government.
Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced in his recent Budget an investment of £7.5 million to fund projects to identify households in fuel poverty and to give them “the right coordinated help”. He suggested that that would target 300,000 of the most vulnerable households and lift them out of fuel poverty. What is “the right coordinated help”, at £25 a house, to work this miracle?
Lord Truscott: My Lords, it is important, in addition to the national Warm Front scheme, to tackle deprivation in local communities, an idea which was behind a number of Warm Zone areas identified for special help. As the noble Lord said, the Chancellor announced in his 2006 Pre-Budget Statement a further £7.5 million to improve the effectiveness of Warm Front and the Energy Efficiency Commitment. It is a successful programme which is making a real achievement in improving fuel poverty issues in the areas identified.
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: My Lords—
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, we are into the eighth minute.
Elections: Signatures
11.20 am
Baroness Hanham asked Her Majesty’s Government:
Further to the statement that they intend to bring forward primary legislation to require signatures in polling stations, when such legislation will be introduced.
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Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, the Government intend to bring forward primary legislation to provide a clear requirement for electors in polling stations to sign for their ballot paper and for the ballot paper to be withheld should an elector refuse to sign. We will do this when parliamentary time allows.
Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that half-helpful reply. Does he agree that the Government have created the most astonishing muddle over this matter, first, by introducing measures in the Electoral Administration Act to require voters to provide a signature in polling stations and, secondly, by having to rescind them because those measures were inadequately drafted? As the Official Opposition have made it clear that they will support short legislation to rectify this situation, can the Minister explain why there is not more urgency behind the statement he has made?
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, we discussed this in Grand Committee. The noble Baroness described it as,
- “a fiasco of the greatest order ... I cannot overstate the fact that this is a monumental blunder”.—[Official Report, 20/3/07; col. GC 158.]
In Grand Committee, on behalf of the Government, I apologised three times for the fact that this had happened. It was an error, which we wish to rectify as soon as possible. It has to be done by primary legislation. I do not know when that will be because I cannot predict what will be in the Queen’s Speech in the next Session.
As the noble Baroness said, we tried to tag it on to a Bill which was going through, but that was not possible because the scope was different. We are aware of the problem, we recognise that we have made a mistake and we want to rectify it as soon as possible, which we will do. But I am afraid that I cannot give an absolute timetable at the moment.
Lord Maxton: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the fast introduction of compulsory ID cards would make this legislation irrelevant? We would then be able to produce an ID card when we vote. As the ID card will be a smart card, it will allow for the safe introduction of electronic voting in a variety of places and thus increase the number of people taking part in democracy.
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, I hear what my noble friend says, but I do not wish to reopen the issue of identity cards today. During next week’s local authority elections, the Electoral Commission will conduct several pilot schemes on electronic voting and will monitor the results carefully.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, why did the Minister say that this would have to wait for the Queen’s Speech? Surely, it is in the Government’s power to introduce a Bill at the stroke of a pen, which some people are unable to do at the polling station.
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Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness, but I gather that it is very difficult to get legislative time, whichever Government are in power. Everyone recognises the importance of this and we will get legislative time as soon as possible to rectify this error.
Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, when the primary legislation is introduced, will the Minister undertake to include provisions for tightening up postal voting? I ask this in view of the widespread fraud that already takes place and will no doubt again take place next week.
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, I cannot give that undertaking at the moment because I do not accept that there is widespread fraud in postal voting. There are indications of some forms of fraud being monitored very carefully by the Electoral Commission, and obviously the matter we are talking about today would be an important factor in helping to prevent it. However, while the evidence we have indicates that fraud is an issue, it is not a serious one at the moment.
Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, will the system we intend to introduce be based on the collection of original signatures by canvassers in order to check off against signatures taken in polling stations? If that is the case, are we satisfied that the Electoral Commission is taking into account the fact that those canvassers who have to go into the more violent parts of our inner cities to collect those signatures will be undertaking very dangerous work?
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, I am not able to comment on the attitude of the Electoral Commission to this. As I understand it, we are talking about signatures being collected at polling stations. If there is any suspicion—and there are various ways of checking whether something is wrong—a ballot paper is not given to the person who wishes to vote.
Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, the Electoral Commission has just produced a report saying that personation is in fact the most common way of committing electoral fraud. The Minister and others have referred to the elections taking place next week and the Minister also mentioned some experiments to be conducted in those elections. But what action is being taken to ensure that there is not much personation in polling stations during these elections?
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, the evidence we have shows that during the period 2000-06, the Crown Prosecution Service looked at 91 files containing allegations of voting offences, and of those, 40 related to personation problems. So although it is a small problem, it is a problem. Even though voters will not be signing for their ballot papers next week, if the presiding officer has any suspicions, he may ask the elector two questions. If the presiding officer is not satisfied with the answers, he has the power to ensure that a ballot paper is not
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Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, does my noble friend recall that as well as local elections next week, there are also elections to the Scottish Parliament? Will he join me in encouraging the people of Scotland, particularly unionists of all colours, to come out and vote in those elections in the kind of numbers we have just seen in France so that we can avoid the break-up of Britain?
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, every Member of this House would be very happy if our voting percentage rose to 84 per cent next week both in the local and the Scottish elections. I agree with my noble friend. Yesterday, an extraordinary full-page advertisement signed by some very distinguished people was taken out in the Scotsman saying that the union must stay intact. I have every hope that that will happen.
Railways: Saver Fares
11.28 am
Lord Bradshaw asked Her Majesty’s Government:
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, no train operator has advised the Government of any plans to withdraw saver-style flexible walk-up fares on the railways.
Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reassurance, as we are most concerned about the affordable walk-up market. He says that newspaper reports that saver fares are under threat are false. Does he know of any proposals to reduce the period over, or change the day on, which they are available?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I know of no firm propositions to do so, although there is of course some flexibility with saver fares. As the noble Lord rightly says, saver fares are incredibly popular and a commercially attractive product; they account for some 50 to 60 per cent of journeys on typical inter-city routes. We all recognise their value. I do not think any train operating company worth its salt would want to dispense with them.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, does the Minister agree that, in the interests of tackling climate change, there should be no financial encouragement to take internal flights or use a motor car? Does he agree that to try to get the cheapest train fare is a lottery in comparison with which gambling on the horses is a scientific activity?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord’s point about encouraging people to use the railways. We should all try to use rail as much
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Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, does the Minister agree that the saver ticket is the bedrock of railway tickets for non-business travel? Does he further agree that flexibility is an advantage of rail travel that ought to be retained?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I have already made it clear that we are completely at one there. I share the noble Lord’s desire to see that saver fares remain in place and operate well. They are an attractive option, ensuring that rail travel is within the scope of most people’s pockets. So yes, of course.
Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, much of our discussion runs contrary to what is happening. Rail fares are going up by much more than inflation each year. The Government’s policy of reducing overcrowding on trains seems to be pricing people off them. That runs contrary to our green policy debates encouraging people to take the train. Can the Minister say something about what we are going to do to keep fares at a reasonable level?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: Nonsense, my Lords. The number of people on the rail network is 40 per cent higher than it was when Labour came to office. With Labour in Government, rail fares have fallen. Regulated fares have been limited to an average annual increase equal to inflation between 1995 and 1998; 1 per cent less than inflation between 1999 and 2003; and just 1 per cent more than inflation from 2004 onwards. In 2007, regulated fares are still, on average, 2 per cent lower in real terms than in 1996. Our Government can be proud of that record.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, is it not the case that the cheapest fares are unregulated, not the saver tickets? The only difficulty is that they must be bought ahead of travel, and people have difficulty finding out what is available for their journey. Does the Minister agree that much can be said for the train operators reinvigorating their publicity to make it clear that if passengers book ahead, either on the internet or by telephone, they can get some very cheap tickets? Examples on offer earlier this week for travel next week included £9.50 one way to Leeds or £12.50 to Crewe.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the noble Lord is a veritable expert in train travel and rail fares; I would not pretend to compete with him. He makes an important point: if you book ahead—particularly using online facilities, as increasing numbers are—you can pick up some extremely good-value fare purchases. I encourage people to do exactly that.
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