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House of Lords
Monday, 23 April 2007.
The House met at half-past two: the LORD SPEAKER on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of St Albans.
Tax Credits
Baroness Williams of Crosby asked Her Majesty’s Government:
What proportion of (a) eligible working families, (b) single parents and (c) old age pensioners claim tax credits.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, latest estimates show that, in 2004-05, 90 per cent of eligible low-income working families with children and 93 per cent of eligible working single parents took up the child and working tax credits. Estimates of tax credit take-up rates for those above state pension age are not available.
Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. First, would it be difficult to obtain the latter figures on pensions, which are very important? Secondly, are there substantial differences, not only between but within regions? My understanding is that in some cities fewer than half of those entitled to tax credits are claiming.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, we could not possibly have the figures for cities, given the low return rates, as the noble Baroness has indicated. I have no briefing on city break-downs. I should emphasise that we do not have figures on pensioners because a very small number of them are entitled to claim tax credits—not pension credits but tax credits. That is why we do not have figures with which to draw comparisons.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, why does one-third of the money spent on tax credits—one-third of £16 billion—go to the richest half of society, and is paid to those with incomes of up to £61,500? Why does the system appear to pay more to couples who split up than to couples with children who remain together?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, on the latter point, there might be difficulties catching up with the new arrangements when couples have recently split up. There is no difficulty over permanent relationships; but overpayments can occur during the year following a split-up. On the more general point, I would have thought that the situation was clear. The concept behind tax credits is to give benefit across the board. It helps in our strategy of relieving child poverty, it helps the low-paid among whom the take-up rate is high,
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Lord Wedderburn of Charlton: My Lords, what percentage of the claimants, or how many, were paid too much or too little?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I do not have the precise figures but the answer is too many. We were, and are, concerned about the administration of the scheme, which certainly led to far too many overpayments being made. There will always be a difficulty because people’s tax position and liabilities can change significantly during the year, the most dramatic change being when families split up. It is obligatory for citizens to respond when their circumstances change but they do not always do so with alacrity. That is why overpayment occurs, why we are concerned about the level of overpayment and why we introduced procedures to reduce it.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, perhaps I may help the Minister. In 2004-05, £1.8 billion was overpaid in tax credits. It was then clawed back the following year, often causing great difficulty to the recipient. By now, the noble Lord should have the figures for 2005-06. What are they? Furthermore, the pensions Minister in another place has claimed that the Pensions Bill will prevent the number of pensioners being means-tested reaching 80 per cent by 2050. How many pensioners will be means-tested if the Pensions Bill, which is currently in this House, goes through as expected?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Lord anticipated that I would have the 2005-06 figures but I am sorry to say that I do not; they are not ready. I regret that but it is a fact and I am not armed with the figures. On the more general issue, the noble Lord will recognise that in all these areas the Government have set objectives for high targets to be reached by their legislation, although that does not mean that we are fully on course to meet them in every case. However, I hope that the other side will recognise the significant improvement that we have made in reducing child poverty, whereas under the previous Administration child poverty was doubling.
Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, if no one else is going to put in a word in favour of tax credits, perhaps I may do so. Is it not the case that tax credits have enabled large numbers of people to work at levels of pay that employers can afford and enjoy a relatively decent standard of living?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, as my noble friend indicated, the whole point about tax credits is that they are meant to reduce the disincentive to work, which obtained significantly before they were introduced, and they guarantee a proper income for people in work.
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords, I do not think that I heard the Minister answer the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale,
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Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Lord should recognise that this is a question about tax credits and not about welfare benefits relating to pensions. Therefore, it is not surprising that I am not in a position to hazard a guess about the situation in 2050 in the way that he asked. As I have clearly indicated, the Government’s intention is to reduce poverty among older people and children, where the greatest incidence of poverty occurs, and we are making powerful strides in that direction.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, given that the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, is concerned that certain areas may be suffering from a postcode lottery, will the Minister consider encouraging CABs and other such organisations to offer people help in filling in what are often difficult tax forms?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, we certainly want to ensure that the system is uniform across the country, and the information given by and understanding of the taxpayer are crucial in arriving at a correct assessment.
Schools: Language Teaching
2.45 pm
Lord Quirk: asked Her Majesty’s Government:
What action they are taking or planning to take in response to the recent Languages Review by Lord Dearing and Dr Lid King.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education and Skills (Lord Adonis): My Lords, the Secretary of State has welcomed the Languages Review and announced that languages would become a statutory part of the primary school curriculum when it is next reviewed. He has also announced a budget of £50 million for languages in 2007-08. We are considering how to take forward each recommendation of the review, and are confident that the package as a whole will have a significant impact on language teaching and learning in both primary and secondary schools.
Lord Quirk: My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for the detail of that reply. He will doubtless agree that it is in secondary schools that the matter of reversing the downward trend will be most challenging. It may well be that instilling some strong motivation for language learning in respect of future careers may be a key factor. Will the Minister therefore be urging big employers, such as the Civil Service, to state in job ads that the knowledge of a second or third language would be an advantage?
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Lord Adonis: My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord that both employers, including the Civil Service, and higher education have a role to play in ensuring that languages are taken seriously in secondary schools. However, as he will be aware, one of the major thrusts of the report by the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, was the importance of systematically introducing languages into primary schools, where they simply have not been present in the past, so that pupils arrive at secondary school with the motivation to learn a language, which we believe will make a big difference to the likelihood of their continuing to learn it beyond the age of 14.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, how confident are the Government that they will have enough teachers capable of teaching at the primary school level? In particular, will some native speakers be used to act as assistants in primary schools, perhaps by doing short-course training? We send people overseas with just six weeks’ training from courses on Teaching English as a Foreign Language.
Lord Adonis: My Lords, yes, we are using an increasing number of assistants in primary schools. As the noble Baroness is aware, historically we did not train language teachers specifically for primary school; that happened only in the private sector. We have started doing so, and now have 2,000 specifically trained language teachers in the primary sector. We are training at the rate of 1,000 a year, and believe that that will help us to systematically introduce language learning into primary schools.
Baroness Verma: My Lords, can the Minister tell us whether the Government are planning to increase the number of specialist colleges from 300 to 400?
Lord Adonis: Yes, my Lords, we are. As the noble Baroness will be aware, that was also a recommendation of the noble Lord, Lord Dearing. So concerned are we to see that it is met that we have increased the incentive for secondary schools to apply to take on either a first specialism or second specialism in languages, so that we can work towards the figure of 400.
Baroness Sharples: My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that English being the second language of, I believe, 27 per cent of youngsters who now attend school presents a considerable problem?
Lord Adonis: My Lords, it clearly does present a problem, particularly in the teaching of English in those schools. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, stressed in his report, it also presents an
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Baroness Warnock: My Lords, the Government are fully behind the proposal to have a ladder up which people can ascend when they are ready at each stage of language learning. That will involve pupils of different ages taking the same examinations at the same time. Is that part of the policy?
Lord Adonis: My Lords, that is an absolutely key part of the policy so that we start introducing inter-language learning, the concept that has been present in music education for decades, where pupils take music grades when they are ready rather than in a regimented way according to their age or, too often, not at all. The languages ladder was introduced last year, when we had 25,000 entries. The number of centres offering the ladder has increased from 131 to 1,500. We expect 160,000 entries this year and we are expanding the range of languages available. The noble Lord, Lord Dearing, had a great deal to say about how we should integrate the languages ladder into assessments in primary and secondary schools and we intend to take forward his recommendations in that regard.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall: My Lords, will the Minister accept that the news that the Government are to introduce language teaching as a statutory requirement in primary schools is extremely welcome? There are probably many people in this House and elsewhere who wish that they had had the benefit of that early in their careers. Has he considered the possibility that, as with music teaching, many people in the community who are not trained teachers and do not wish to be may have skills in languages that they could bring into the classroom, subject to quality standards being applied of course, on an outsourced basis and not as permanent members of staff? Does he agree that the voluntary and private sectors may have a part to play in providing those services?
Lord Adonis: My Lords, my noble friend makes an extremely valuable point. Many members of the community and those employed by voluntary and private organisations can make a big contribution here. Their contribution can be particularly great because most primary schools may need not a full-time languages teacher, but an assistant, as mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, or support staff to help existing primary school teachers. We need to explore all these avenues.
Baroness Thomas of Walliswood: My Lords, will the Government respond positively to the four strong recommendations for improving the qualifications of teachers in secondary schools, which have been put forward on page 17 in the Languages Review? They include national teacher research scholarships and the
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Lord Adonis: My Lords, we will respond positively to those recommendations. I cannot give chapter and verse on each of them now, but I will write to the noble Baroness. Each of them involves resource. We have a budget of £50 million this year for language learning and we need to see how we can prioritise those recommendations among others, with the resources available.
Olympic Games 2012: Hackney Marshes
2.52 pm
Lord James of Blackheath asked Her Majesty’s Government:
Whether they still intend to use Hackney Marshes as a VIP car park during the 2012 London Olympic Games; and, if so, what proportion of the football pitches will be affected and what alternative facilities will be provided for the youth of Hackney.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, East Marsh, part of Hackney Marshes, will provide disabled parking and a coach drop-off facility during the 2012 Olympic Games and Paralympic Games. The 13 football pitches on that site will be required for two football seasons from May 2011 to August 2013. During that period, the London Development Agency plans to provide an equivalent facility elsewhere on the main part of Hackney Marshes through upgrading currently disused pitches.
Lord James of Blackheath: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. Can he assure me that the Government at the time will cover the cost of relocating the pitches and properly equipping them in replacement?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, it is a proper cost in the budget.
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, is it right that the London Borough of Hackney is unconcerned about the point raised by the noble Lord? Is it also right that the borough is only too anxious to protect the rights of Hackney citizens wherever they may be adversely affected?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the London Borough of Hackney has long experience of running the pitches in Hackney Marshes but it is unconcerned because it stands to benefit significantly from the legacy of the Olympic Games.
Lord Addington: My Lords, would it not be rather strange to attack Hackney, one of the few places to have a direct and guaranteed benefit through facilities
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Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, they certainly have, and I speak from bitter experience 45 years ago. If ever a group of football pitches needed improvement, it is certainly those on Hackney Marshes, of which there are very many. Some of them will benefit significantly from the Olympic legacy.
Baroness O'Cathain: My Lords, is it true that part of the arena facilities at Hackney Marshes, taking in not only pitches but also important dressing room facilities, is earmarked by the Olympic planners for a big media centre that, it is thought, will be a permanent fixture? Is there a prospect of getting compensatory land so that the pitches and dressing room facilities can be replaced?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, as ever, the noble Baroness is well informed. One of the main media centres will be located in this area, and its legacy will be that afterwards it will be a prime business site of high rentable value. Resources from that can be put into—I nearly said “ploughed into”—football pitches that need vast improvement.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, bearing in mind the Government’s policy on global warming, instead of providing car parks for VIPs would it not be preferable to encourage them to travel by public transport and set an example to everyone else?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, this facility will be of significant use for disabled visitors to the Games. We expect a high percentage of those attending the Games to use the excellent public transport infrastructure that will be in place by then.
Baroness Tonge: My Lords, will the Minister comment on reports that natural gas has been discovered under Hackney Marshes and the whole of the Lea Valley? Will he give noble Lords an estimate of the cost properly to remedy the problem?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I thought that even more noisome substances than natural gas had been found under Hackney Marshes. Part of the work on preparing the sites is proving costly and laborious because of certain inert gases found under the surface and the problem of site clearance. However, those problems are being overcome.
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