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The fundamental point is that a torture victim is in the most vulnerable position imaginable and even a day’s delay is too long. Another victim was given the name of a lawyer 11 months after his arrest. When complaints are made by UK officials they are often made to the perpetrators of torture and ill treatment, rather than to a higher level, thereby rendering the victim liable to further ill treatment.
The Bill is about proper reparation to victims of terrorist attack. Of course, I realise that I have strayed far beyond its remit. However, I believe that victims and their relatives are not the only injured; the illegally detained and the abused are also injured. In these cases the role of UK officials abroad is crucial. The more timely and resolute the action, the greater the chance that those UK citizens in countries where abuse and torture are endemic will be better protected.
11.40 am
Lord Marsh: My Lords, I had not intended to speak on this subject, but it is one of the rare occasions when I feel emotional about the issue and part of the reason for the debate. I know the young people in Bali very well. They are quite different from the sort of people who normally attract terrorism on this sophisticated level.
Bali does not have masses of military around, so they are not a target. It does not have many big, rich hotels. It contains one thing in large quantities: young people, water skiing and drinking. They normally do so in Gang Poppies, a lane based around a small pub set up 20-odd years ago by two Australians. They go there to enjoy themselves, and they were prime targets for terrorists of this type. It will not happen once, twice or three times; it will be done over and over again. They are not big names. Nobody knows who they are. But it brings a new edge to the evilness of those who are happy with what they have achieved through this. The upset caused will happen many times. It will not just be the children who are upset and killed in a ghastly manner.
At a little hall that I also know very well, attackers set fire to the inside and, as they came out, they blew up cars across the entrance for the sheer fun of it. The Government of that area are not particularly popular in many respects, but they tracked those people down. Within 78 hours, a large number of them were already under arrest—that was additional to insurance. Governments themselves might begin to take a rougher view of terrorism on this scale.
11.42 am
Lord Addington: My Lords, the Bill addresses a real problem which the Government have addressed in other aspects of our lives: the idea that people
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The noble Lord, Lord Brennan, has therefore come up with a solution. Whether it is the best solution conceivably available might be open to question, but it is the one now before us. The noble Lord deserves credit for bringing it forward now, in the face of absolutely nothing happening elsewhere—or, if not nothing, then at least not enough.
Is it affordable? When he gave us a briefing on this, I asked the noble Lord whether he thought it was. He came up with the figure of £3 million, repeated today. If that is the case, it should be made available. Is the insurance industry as it stands capable of doing this? Probably not. If you have an exclusion against something which you think will probably not happen but could be very expensive—it is safe to say that insurers are there to make money—something else must happen to fill the gap. Normal policies will probably not provide for that.
This scheme gives us a potential way of dealing with a problem. It is less a matter of asking the Government than of asking the Treasury Bench whether they think there is another way of doing it or whether the Government have any information about another way forward. If there is an objection to the scheme or a way of extending treaties overseas, or if it is reasonable to expect potentially poor countries to provide this degree of compensation, I would be interested to hear about it. I doubt there will be an objection, but it is just the kind of question I want to hear answered. If the Government cannot give us a compelling answer why the Bill is not needed, we should accept it or something like it. It gives us a last resort.
What else could we do? We could adopt something totally unlinked to insurance, leaving it up to the Government. That is a possible answer. Unless we address this problem through some government scheme, however, we should look very hard at the Bill in front of us, or something very like it, and we should do so soon.
11.45 am
Baroness Noakes: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, has made a powerful case for the victims of overseas terrorism. I do not think that anyone can fail to be moved by the plight of the victims of incidents such as those at Sharm el-Sheikh or Bali.
The Bill allows us to debate the nature of the relationship between citizens and the state in today’s world and, more specifically, what citizens can expect from their state. It is clear that citizens can expect the state to protect them from physical harm within its own boundaries, whether from hostile incursion or, in today’s world, from terrorist attacks from within. However, I do not believe it has been established as a general principle in our country that there is an absolute right for citizens to be protected from
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The Bill forces us to confront the question of how far the state—or, more accurately, taxpayers—must seek to protect its citizens from economic harm if they choose to travel beyond our boundaries. Overseas travel is now affordable by many in our society; indeed, it is available on a scale which would have been unthinkable less than a generation ago. The question we have to ask is whether it is reasonable that those who travel overseas should impose a financial burden on those who do not wish to travel or perhaps do not have the resources to travel. We do not find this easy, and I do not think that there has yet been a proper debate on this whole issue. The Bill gives us an opportunity today to start that debate, and we are grateful for that, but it also raises complex issues.
There should also be a debate on whether there should be an obligation on those who travel abroad to carry proper insurance. My noble friend Lord Sheikh, who has much insurance expertise, thought that that would be difficult to achieve, and I am sure that that is the case. The British Insurance Brokers’ Association, to which other noble Lords have referred today, noted that 15 per cent of policies have no terrorism exclusion and a further 29 per cent cover medical expenses and some other costs. So, it is clear that insurance is available. Of course, part of the problem is that large numbers of our citizens go abroad without any insurance cover at all, and others go with inadequate cover. Is it then reasonable for the state to assume the role of de facto insurer for those who choose, either knowingly or through ignorance, to travel uninsured or inadequately insured?
I am not sure that Clause 3 is necessary, since cover is currently available. Does the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, know whether the insurance industry wants to enter into arrangements such as Pool Re, with the Treasury acting as reinsurer of last resort? The noble Lord said that the Treasury acted as reinsurer in those cases. In fact, Pool Re is the reinsurer, and it is a mutual arrangement for the insurance industry. The Treasury merely acts as the reinsurer of last resort. That enabled the insurance market to provide much needed and desired, though not obligatory, business cover in the wake of the attacks referred to. Is there a similar demand for terrorism cover within travel policies, which will of course have a cost, and which needs to be facilitated in this way? After all, if the arrangements for compensation in Clause 4 are brought into effect, why should anyone pay for insurance? They will see the state standing behind, ultimately, as the insurer.
We are concerned about the scope of the Bill in Clause 1. The definition of “overseas terrorism” is wide. On my reading of the Bill, it would cover businessmen or contractors who were working in, say, Iraq and were caught up in the attacks that happen there all too frequently. It seems that, as Clause 1 is drafted, they would be within the Bill’s scope, but
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We understand and sympathise with the starting date of 1 January 2002 although, as a general principle, we do not like retrospection. The plain fact is that terrorism did not start on that date. Since the insurance arrangements by definition cannot have retrospective effect, the Bill in effect creates a special class of victim qualifying for compensation on a retrospective basis. We are not sure if that is a proper legislative principle.
The core of the Bill lies not in the advice and assistance in Clause 2, which may not need to be provided in statute at all. It is certainly not in Clause 3, because insurance will not in any event be compulsory under the Bill. The heart of the Bill is in the compensation arrangements, which are called an “awards” scheme but are plainly a compensation scheme. Here, the crucial issue is cost. The noble Lord, Lord Brennan, has referred to the cost of £3 million per annum, which seems modest. The criminal injuries compensation scheme currently costs around £200 million a year. While terrorist incidents to date may not be so numerous, the average cost of those incidents must be high. I find it difficult to see £3 million as the likely cost of such a scheme if it were introduced. We cannot go forward with the scheme unless there is a clear understanding of the costs that are to be imposed on the taxpayer.
Last year the Government announced a donation of £1 million to a fund to be administered by the Red Cross to assist victims of overseas terrorism. Clearly that would not match the kind of payouts envisaged by the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, but it was something positive. I hope that the Minister will say something about that fund today.
There remains the possibility of seeking compensation in the relevant overseas courts for loss or damage or under local compensation schemes. Perhaps the Minister will say something about the opportunities that exist for victims to seek compensation abroad, and whether the Government intend to support victims in that endeavour.
We have tremendous sympathy with and compassion for the victims of terrorism, wherever it takes place. But we have to temper our sympathy and compassion with realism. In today’s global world, should we look to the state—and therefore its taxpayers—to keep its citizens free from economic harm without geographic or other limit? That is a question I cannot answer today, but I welcome the debate that the noble Lord’s Bill has allowed us to have.
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11.54 am
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I join all noble Lords who have thanked my noble friend Lord Brennan for introducing such an important Bill today. It has led to productive debate upon an issue about which we are all concerned. He was right when he indicated that the support for the principle behind his Bill would extend across all parts of this House, and indeed in all parts of the other place too. If one had doubted that for one moment, the noble Lord, Lord Marsh, testified to that effect with an unscripted and unheralded speech in which he indicated that these issues are of great concern to us all. My noble friend made his case with his usual eloquence and skill, and those whose cause he is seeking to advance should be suitably grateful to him for his concern about this area. They could not have a better advocate in this complex and important matter.
I also thank the families of the victims and the survivors of previous overseas terrorist incidents, who have done a great deal to bring this issue to public attention and to ensure that the Government address it. I shall respond to the Bill and indicate where it will need improvements, but also indicate just what the Government’s thinking is and how we hope to be productive in this area.
In recent years UK citizens have been affected by terrorism overseas, and we have to respond to that. It raises new issues for us. After the 7 July bombings, it became obvious that to enable a seamless and co-ordinated response from Government to the short-term and longer-term needs of those affected, we would have to address this issue in much clearer terms than we had done in the past. That is why we established a new Humanitarian Assistance Unit within the Department for Culture, Media and Sport to address these needs, and to ensure that the work is grounded in the direct experience of those who have suffered in previous tragedies. A great deal of that work is inevitably with other government departments, particularly the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, ensuring that the Government continue to offer assistance to victims of overseas disasters once they return to the UK, and improvements are continually being made to the provision of clear information and practical support to all those who are involved.
In addition, the charitable fund creates a base for some financial assistance to victims of overseas terrorist attacks. We recognise that there is a very clear disparity between the financial support available to overseas victims and that available to those who suffer from terrorist attacks within this country. We announced last year that we would contribute £1 million to the charitable fund for overseas victims, an issue that the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, raised. The fund will be run by the Red Cross, and it will be ready to launch formally very soon.
In the mean time, the Red Cross has already made payments to all those bereaved or seriously injured by overseas terrorism since the fund was announced in March this year. So far 21 payments have been made from the fund: one bereavement payment and 20 payments relating to injuries from attacks in
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We have therefore been looking at the financial options available for victims of overseas terrorism. We understand the argument put forward for a new compensation scheme, but there are important issues to consider. First, should we look for compensation for UK citizens from the country where the attack occurred? Many countries offer their compensation schemes and my noble friend Lord Brennan indicated the extent of that in European Union countries. The problem is that they are only some of the countries which are visited by British tourists and that recent attacks have been outside Europe.
The principle at stake is whether the Government should fill the gaps or whether we should look to other Governments to do so. I respect the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Addington, that some countries and Governments may be ill placed to make such provision. However, others are directly comparable with the states of the European Union and it would be reasonable for them to adopt the same strategies.
Secondly, should we treat victims of terrorism differently from victims of other violent crime? I am afraid that there are victims of horrific, life-changing crime committed overseas and the significance of its impact on them and their families is as bad as terrorist incidents. The Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority does not treat victims of terrorism differently from victims of other violent crime committed within the UK, nor does the separate Northern Ireland scheme. They are treated equally. Therefore, to do so overseas would mean taking a different approach and we are not confident that that would be the right decision.
Neither of those issues would prevent us establishing a compensation scheme if we decided to do so, but it is clear that we need to examine them in close detail before reaching a conclusion. We are committed to solving these problems and we do not pretend that they are anything other than difficult to tackle. We must define who would be eligible for compensation; we must define “British”, “injury” and “terrorism”; and we must define how a scheme would work alongside the existing domestic Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme and the reciprocal schemes in Europe.
We are therefore not in a position to be as categorical as the Bill requires us to be. Although I am offering my noble friend the Government’s commitment to tackling this issue, we are not in a position to say that the Bill provides the solution that we need. It certainly goes some way towards it and it
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As the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, indicated, there is a range of policies on the market at different prices offering consumers different levels of cover. We do not think that it is the Government’s role to compel insurers to offer cover. The noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, deployed arguments against compulsion which raised philosophical and political decisions about the nature of compulsion on our society. Decisions on price and coverage are ultimately commercial ones for the insurer. However, cover is available for terrorist attacks and it is important that our people are aware of it and take advantage of that. We do not believe that there is a market failure which warrants government intervention to compel insurers to provide cover or to set up the Government as an insurer of last resort. That is not the position that confronts us.
However, we believe it is necessary that my department and the Treasury continue to work closely with the insurance industry to ensure that terrorism cover is readily available and that where exclusions exist consumers are all too well aware of them. A recent Treasury Select Committee report recommended that the Government and the FSA should work together to develop insurance policies that are clear, in plain English and effectively promoted to ensure that holidaymakers know exactly what is included. We are about to respond to its recommendations.
Clause 5 of the Bill requires that sums paid by the compensation scheme following injury or loss resulting from an act of terrorism overseas take into account an insurance payment made to the injured person in respect of that injury or loss. However, as I have noted, travel insurance is designed to provide immediate assistance, not to provide compensation for long-term suffering and loss. Such a clause might well act as a disincentive to individuals to take out terrorism insurance cover and there would be the danger that insurance cover, if stretched too far, might be unattractive because of the inevitable rise in premiums. It is important that consumers purchasing travel insurance are able to make informed choices about what they are, or are not, covered for. Insurance covering individuals for terrorism in certain cases is available on the market and we see it as the task of government to raise people’s awareness of what they are purchasing in travel policies.
There are aspects of the Bill which, my noble friend Lord Brennan will recognise from today’s contributions, raise difficulties. A brief reference was made to the retrospective aspect of the provision, which is an important issue. Government schemes do
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We recognise that the Bill reflects the considerable work undertaken by a large number of people in tackling this issue. Where we are able to give support, we intend to do so and we are giving our support to the Red Cross scheme. However, there is another aspect of the Bill which raises interesting issues. My noble friend Lord Brennan mentioned consular assistance being placed on a statutory basis and that has significant implications for government. The noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, indicated where she wants to see an extension of such activity and that certainly fits within the desired aims. However, it will be recognised that putting consular assistance on a statutory basis is a profound legal proposition. It may be a modest aspect of the Bill, but it raises substantial issues for the Government. Once it was in statute, it would mean that all the consular service’s actions in respect of incidents abroad would potentially become subject to litigation. We are all too well aware that consulates do their best and work constructively under enormous difficulties and in a vast range of circumstances. The House will recognise how significant it would be if such actions were potentially subject to litigation in this country about their effectiveness.
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