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During the debate many of your Lordships admitted that, as recently appointed Peers, or as former Members of another place, where they may have given long service, they came here with a certain prejudice and misconceived idea of how the House of Lords operated. Perhaps your Lordships will therefore forgive me if, as a result of my mere 22 years here, I draw attention to two things mentioned again and again in the debate which rather irritate me. One is the suggestion that the pre-reform House of Lords was supine during a Conservative Government and superactive against a Labour Government. Having served as a Minister for seven years during successive Conservative Governments, I assure your Lordships from personal experience and observation that the House of Lords always comes into its own when there is a huge majority in the House of Commons and the Government of the day is able to steam-roller its legislation through at that end. Secondly, it has been said that a House of Lords composed of a hybrid mixture of life and hereditary Peers is somehow less effective than a wholly appointed House.
Hereditary Peers did their public duty in an entirely admirable way. Those who did not turn up, and were criticised for that, were at least cost effective. The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, will appreciate that. My view is that the Government’s concession over the 92 hereditary Peers came about when they suddenly realised that without many of the hereditaries who chaired Select Committees and held key functions in your Lordships’ House, the place would collapse or degenerate into chaos.
If, as has been said, the number of government defeats and the vast quantity of amendments to government legislation is so much higher during a Labour Government, I suggest, in the concise wording of the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, that this is because too much ill judged and badly prepared legislation has been foisted upon us.
I hope that tomorrow we shall go for a change that will benefit not only this House and this Parliament but also the country.
8.29 pm
Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, like other speakers in this debate, I spent a happy couple of hours at the weekend reading the Hansard reports of the debate in the other place last Tuesday and Wednesday. I was surprised to find that there were some remarkable omissions from the Ministers’ speeches. A number of Ministers spoke, and a lot of questions remained unanswered. My noble friend Lord Lipsey clearly hit a raw nerve by drawing attention to the astronomical cost—more than £2 billion over 15 years—of creating a 100 per cent elected House. The Leader of the House of Commons described my noble friend’s calculation as “utter balderdash and nonsense”, but he declined
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There is a lack of any evidence that the public has a desire radically to change the role or composition of this place. Indeed, a number of MPs made the point that they had not received a single representation from a constituent on this subject in all the time that they had been in the House of Commons. Others referred to opinion polls that report 70 per cent satisfaction with what we do here. That is despite the pathetic refusal of much of the media to take seriously what we do here. I agree completely with my noble friend Lord MacKenzie of Culkein, who said that the habit that the media has of only publishing pictures of your Lordships in their robes at State Opening gives a totally false impression of what we do.
The third omission last week was a lack of evidence that a wholly or partly elected House of Lords would do a better job than we do now. I draw your Lordships’ attention to the speech by Robert Marshall-Andrews MP, who said that he had changed his mind twice, from being a unicameralist in 1999 to supporting a substantially elected second Chamber in 2003, to supporting the status quo now. He said:
“I asked myself if, in the past 15 years, professional politicians, especially from the Labour and Conservative parties, had been elected to the second Chamber on a list system, the House of Lords would have set its face against the Criminal Justice (Mode of Trial) Bill and the Criminal Justice (Mode of Trial) (No. 2) Bill, and whether it would have opposed the removal of the right to elect for trial by jury. My view is that it would not have done so”.—[Official Report, Commons, 7/3/07; col. 1582.]
He changed his vote on that basis.
A fourth omission from the debate was any serious criticism of how this House deals with government legislation. The situation has changed significantly in the nearly eight years that I have been here. There is a balanced membership where no one party has more than 30 per cent of the total membership, the Government still lose votes and the Commons is asked to reconsider legislation, sometimes two or three times, but in the end the elected Chamber has its way. The contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, on the Police and Justice Bill on 7 November has been widely quoted. A few minutes ago, the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, quoted the exchange between Jack Straw and Chris Mullin at the beginning of the debate. In agreeing with Mr Mullin that the nub of the problem is that an elected or part-elected House would be used to undermine the legitimacy of the House of Commons, Mr Straw rather gave the game away. You will look in vain, my Lords, for any suggestion that the Government have a solution to that.
If there were a new constitutional settlement, not only between the two Chambers but also between Parliament and the Executive, possibly with no Ministers at all in this House, there could be some logic in establishing a wholly elected second Chamber. In those circumstances, it would be unimaginable that an elected House would be content with the very limited powers that we are content to exercise here now. For Members in the other place to argue, as some did last week, that you could indefinitely
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What happens now? Much is being made of the votes in the Commons last Wednesday, but they are a long way short of demonstrating that there is a consensus, even in the other place. The 80 per cent elected option was supported by less than half the Members in the House, and an analysis of the Division list on the final vote, on 100 per cent election, shows some interesting tactical voting, as my noble friend Lady Symons pointed out earlier.
Like other speakers, I cannot believe that any Prime Minister, whether Gordon Brown or David Cameron, would want to clog up the parliamentary timetable for a measure that has no popular support, is wholly unnecessary, will weaken the effectiveness of this House and threatens the constitutional settlement and conventions between the two Houses. Indeed, I am reliably told that Mr Cameron told Conservative Peers at a dinner the other day that Lords reform was a priority for his third term.
Yet Mr Straw clearly believes that he has a sufficiently cosy relationship with the Front Benches of the Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties to press on with the issue, possibly by publishing a draft Bill. I find it curious that the usual channels in this House seem to have been drawn into this too, given what appears from our two-day debate to be the almost overwhelming hostility in all parts of the House to the Government’s White Paper. Our debate has indicated that the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, speaks for very few on his Benches apart from himself, as the excellent intervention yesterday by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, demonstrated. Even the noble Lord, Lord McNally, has some serious doubters among his troops.
I make it clear that I do not favour the status quo, and I want to see this issue finally settled. It can be done by a simple Bill that acknowledges that heredity should not be a criterion for membership of this House, by abolishing the by-elections. I would not, however, support the expulsion of the 92, as it would be simplest for them to remain in this House as de facto life Peers. There should also be a provision relating to disqualification following a serious criminal conviction. Our rules should be the same as those of the Commons on this matter.
I would like to see the establishment of an Appointments Commission on a statutory basis. I go along with the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, that those who serve on the existing non-statutory commission deserve our thanks. They were responsible for blocking four controversial appointments last year, and their role could certainly be enhanced in ways that not only reduce the scale of party political patronage but achieve cultural diversity and the representation of the entire country in a way that elections on party lists could never do. We may hear more about that from the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, who will follow me.
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Such a Bill, if one is introduced, would demonstrate that there is a broad consensus in this House on what should happen next. Most of us believe that we have been given undertakings by the Prime Minister and by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor that this House would be part of the consensus that would be a necessary precondition for reform to proceed. I hope that my noble and learned friend can confirm that that is the case, and that there is no question of the Parliament Act being used to force through a Bill against the wishes of this House and the spirit of that consensus.
Like most other Peers, I intend to vote tomorrow for the all-appointed option and against all the other options.
8.38 pm
Lord Norton of Louth: My Lords, in a powerful speech yesterday the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, said that the Government had lost control of the train and were heading for the station of a 100 per cent elected House. The situation is far worse and certainly more complicated than that. Elections are a means to an end. Arguments over whether we have a 50 or 100 per cent elected House, or the type of electoral system to use, are about which train to catch not where we are going. It is not clear why we are setting off, there is no agreement on which vehicle to use, and—most importantly of all in terms of the constitution of the UK—we have no idea where we are going.
The reasons for embarking on the journey are largely asserted, not proved, and no one has clearly identified the consequences of election for our constitutional arrangements. It is not just a case of the relationship between the two Chambers but how that fits with the type of constitution that we wish to have for this nation. The debate has tended to revolve around means—in effect, everyone’s pet scheme for reform—and not about ends. We have the debate completely back to front.
Of course we must listen to the other place, but we are entitled to ask it and the Government what their ultimate constitutional goal is. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor will tell us precisely what type of constitution the Government seek to create for the United Kingdom, how that fits with recent constitutional changes, and how the election of a second Chamber contributes to that goal.
Why are we setting out on this journey? We are told that it is necessary for reasons of democracy and legitimacy. That is asserted as though it is a self-evident truth, but it is no such thing. There is a perfectly valid case to the contrary, yet hardly anyone in the other place or this House has sought to develop an intellectually coherent case for election. My right honourable friend Oliver Letwin tried to do so in the other place last week by arguing that the debate on Lords reform was one of the principle of election versus the principle of what works. That is a false dichotomy. At no point did he mention the principle of accountability as the basis for retaining an appointed second Chamber. That is fundamental to the argument.
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Election is at the heart of democracy. It is the means by which, in a representative democracy, the people choose who is to govern them. Elections through the House of Commons confirm legitimacy to form a Government. One body—the party in government—is responsible for public policy. The electors not only choose it but can remove it; they know whom to hold to account. There is a core accountability at the heart of the political system.
What happens if this House is elected? The rationale for existing constraints falls. That does not mean that the second Chamber will be coequal with the first, but it will be difficult if not impossible, as the noble Lord, Lord Plant, conceded yesterday, to resist the demands of elected Members for considerably more powers than the existing House. What would be the basis for denying the claims? Existing conventions certainly could not survive under the weight of the claims—the other place could do nothing about that—and nor for that matter could the Parliament Acts.
The potential, therefore, is to undermine not strengthen accountability. If two Houses disagree, they may confer and do deals, as happens in other systems, usually behind closed doors, but who then is responsible for the outcome? Who do electors hold to account for a policy that is not part of the governing party's programme? A blurring of accountability lessens the hold of electors over those they elect. Election becomes a process and not a control. It is not simply a case of maintaining the primacy of the other place; it is about maintaining the accountability of government to the people.
However, would not election, as Jack Straw claims, enhance legitimacy? Legitimacy is derived from an acceptance that people are qualified to carry out the tasks ascribed to them. The current House attracts high approval ratings and the independence of the House is seen as a public good. That good is potentially threatened by a method of election that places excessive power in the hands of parties.
Would election add value to the legislative process? Oliver Heald in the other place argued that experience is not confined to this House. He noted that MPs are experienced in many fields. What he failed to take into account is that MPs have to operate in a highly partisan environment. Members of this House are able to utilise their experience and expertise through constructive engagement, where that expertise influences outcomes and is not washed out by the hegemony of the governing party. Elections alter the terms of trade. They are fundamentally political; regardless of label, they involve competition and having to make a pitch. The dynamic of election will drive out the very things that are seen as the strengths of this House and which voters, according to the polls, wish to retain.
Will not election address other problems identified with this House? The noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, wants a more diverse membership. Has he forgotten that as an MP he was elected to a House of white, middle-class males? Appointment is the most effective and efficient way of providing greater diversity. What about Members who rarely attend? That is an argument for providing
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Is election not essential to rid the system of tainted patronage? The cash-for-honours scandal arose because the system worked, as has been mentioned. Some nominees were blocked. This is not to make a case for the status quo, but it is to point the way forward. Creating a statutory independent Appointments Commission, one that imposes high-quality, transparent thresholds, is as much a legitimate option as transferring power to an unfettered party leadership deciding rankings in a party list.
Reform and election are not synonymous. There are various reforms on the agenda that can help to deliver more effectively the benefits that the public associate with this House. Election threatens, not enhances, those benefits and, as I suggested, it throws into question the fundamentals of our political system. Electing a second Chamber would contribute to an increasingly fragmented constitutional framework. We may need a fundamental review of our constitution before we walk blind into what could prove to be a disaster.
I am for reform of this House but not for election. I support the reforms identified yesterday by the noble Lord, Lord Steel. Tomorrow, a Bill will be introduced to provide for the creation of a statutory independent Appointments Commission, to close off the by-election procedure, to provide for permanent leave of absence, and to deal with Members convicted of serious criminal offences. Closing off the by-election does not remove existing hereditary Peers, nor does it prevent hereditary Peers coming into the House in the future; several already sit as life Peers. Indeed, more may come in on merit rather than waiting for someone to die, as is the case at present.
These are the sort of reforms embodied in option 1, which accepts the case for reform but not for election. The wording of option 1—and option 1 alone—reflects precisely my view. I shall, therefore, vote for the all-appointed option and against all the others.
8.47 pm
Lord Willoughby de Broke: My Lords, I shall be mercifully brief. My speech can be classified more as a question. The noble Baroness, Lady Symons, made an outstanding speech and she effectively demolished the case for hybridity in the reform of your Lordships’ House. She correctly stated that the choice was between a fully elected Chamber and a fully appointed Chamber.
The other place voted for a fully elected Chamber and we have been told by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor that we must take that vote seriously; and I am sure that he is right. So I, at least, hear the early turnings of the tumbrel wheels for this House and the noble Lord, Lord Low, said he rather regretted that his brief stay might be snuffed out. The noble Lord, Lord Gordon, wistfully told us that he felt the boot of history on his posterior. What I want to ask the Lord Chancellor is: how is that boot to be applied? Will the 743 Members of this House be removed in a “big bang” piece of legislation, which
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Assuming that there will be a Bill, how will the Government present it to the House? How will they get rid of the existing life Peers and hereditary Peers? How will it happen? That is what I should like to hear from the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor when he replies to the debate. If the tumbrels are rolling, when are they going to get here and who will be in them?
8.50 pm
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, I am only here because the reform of this House had started. It is an honour to be here as a “people’s Peer”, as the press dubbed us.
After I contributed recently to Radio 4, a member of staff in the other place wrote to me saying:
“I was so pleased to hear you defend the Lords and point out the cavalier way in which members of the House of Commons treat debates on legislation, and divisions. I have been shocked at how Members go through the Aye or Noe lobbies time after time without any idea of what they are voting for. They have been known to complain at elements of the very legislation they have passed!”.
These MPs are selected behind closed doors by constituency party members, devoid of public scrutiny. Will the same be applied to candidates here?
So, yes, reform: abandon the hereditary principle, ensure that non-contributors do not remain, establish a strong independent Appointments Commission to oversee all nominations both to the Cross Benches and the party Benches, and ensure that the House reflects the civil flanks across society; even pay us for the work that we do. Reform and election are not synonymous, as the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, said.
This debate is of such constitutional magnitude that it behoves everyone to vote individually according to their conscience. The Straw report stated that there would be a free vote. I quote:
To help the interpretation of the votes cast tomorrow, I ask each party Bench to give, in turn, a clear statement in their summing up on whether a Whip is in place on their Benches and, if so, to disclose it. Peers are not lobby-fodder. We cannot acquiesce to decreasing the expertise, wisdom and intellectual rigour in Parliament. This House is the guardian of the unwritten constitution.
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Anyone who has not read Michael Portillo’s article in the Sunday Times or heard or read the speeches of the noble and learned Lords, Lord Irvine of Lairg and Lord Howe of Aberavon, or those of the noble Lords, Lord Puttnam and Lord Brennan, and, lastly but by no means least, the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, or the outstanding speeches of the noble Baronesses, Lady Boothroyd and Lady Symons of Vernham Dean, should read them before they vote.
8.53 pm
Lord Adebowale: My Lords, I am a people’s Peer. I filled in an application form, went for an interview and got the job. Apparently, 5,000 people applied for it.
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