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House of Lords
Thursday, 1 March 2007.
The House met at eleven o’clock: the LORD SPEAKER on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of St. Edmundsbury and Ipswich.
Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990
Lord Jenkin of Roding asked Her Majesty’s Government:
When they will introduce the legislation proposed in the White Paper Review of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My Lords, we plan to publish a draft Bill to update the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act during the current Session. Drafting is under way and we will publish as soon as possible. We have made clear that we intend to present the Bill for pre-legislative scrutiny.
Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, do the Government still intend to go ahead with the misguided proposal to merge the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority and the Human Tissue Authority into a single regulator? Do Ministers not recognise that these two arm’s-length bodies have entirely different purposes, that they are concerned with entirely different issues of public policy, that they address entirely different client groups and that they are concerned with entirely different branches of science? What possible advantage will the Government gain by shoving these two bodies into a single body as a regulator?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, to respond to that very briefly, we think it is possible to take the best of what has been done by both the current regulatory bodies—and I pay tribute to their work—and pull them together, while at the same time delivering a more cost-effective approach to regulation.
Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, there are times when it almost appears as if the Government are obsessed by the production of new acronyms—this new body will be called RATE. Does the Minister agree that, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, said, this new merged authority can function only if it establishes within itself two committees, one concerned with human fertilisation, embryo research, stem cell research and the rest, formerly the province of the HFEA, and the other concerned with the removal and storage of human tissue and organs and with transplantation? If two such committees have to be established, what is the point of the merger?
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, primary legislation will be required, and we will bring it forward in due course. It is quite clear that we will have some interesting debates when it comes to your Lordships’ House. We believe that there are real advantages in bringing together the work of these organisations. They will clearly need expert advice. The machinery under which that expert advice is to be given will need to be considered as part of our current deliberations. However, I do not think it follows that two separate committees will be needed or that we ought not to be doing what we are proposing to do.
Lord Winston: My Lords, I declare an interest as a holder of a stem cell licence, granted by the HFEA. Does the Minister not agree that, whatever body finally regulates this important area of clinical medicine and research, it is really important that there is better public engagement? One of the concerns, which I am sure my noble friend shares, is the ludicrous failure to explain the chimeric embryo. As my noble friend will know, there is no possibility whatever that such an embryo could form a viable organism. It seems to many people that the HFEA has completely failed to provide the information that Parliament requires under the 1990 Act. Can we do something about better public engagement in the future?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I hear what my noble friend says. Overall, I pay tribute to the HFEA for the work that it has done. There is no question that the legislation that we have and the work of the regulators have been very much a part of building confidence in this whole area and the reputation of the UK. It is very important that there should be public engagement. I am sure that we will want the new authority to focus very strongly on that. The whole purpose of pre-legislative scrutiny is to enable parliamentarians to take a very full look at the proposals that the Government will be bringing forward.
Baroness Neuberger: My Lords, I, too, declare an interest as a former member of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. In this legislation, it appears that the Government are going to propose that Parliament should define some limits or criteria to apply to the testing of embryos for medical purposes. Can the Minister tell us whether that is likely to remain the case, given that the Government appear to have given way on the human-animal embryo research? If it is, how does the Minister explain that, given the enormous amount of healthcare regulation that we rightly have in this country through professional bodies such as NICE, the royal colleges, and clinical and ethics committees?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I do not understand “have given way”. We have made it absolutely clear that we will be making proposals for pre-legislative scrutiny that we hope will be ready in May. It is now much better to let the path that we have set out take its course, and to allow for there to be full and proper public debate. That will lead to legislation being brought before Parliament as soon as possible. That really is the best way to test out the propositions that the noble Baroness has put forward this morning.
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Baroness Verma: My Lords, do the Government have a timetable for this legislation, as proposed in the White Paper, and will they be taking the legislation forward on a free vote, as recommended by the Science and Technology Committee?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, the free vote question will have to be decided by the appropriate channels in due course, although I do of course understand that many of the issues involved in such legislation are matters of ethics and personal conscience. Your Lordships’ House has taken part in some really quite excellent debates in this area in the past. On the timetable, as I said, we aim to publish a Bill in May for pre-legislative scrutiny for the 2006-07 Session. As ever, I cannot say when we will then expect to bring forward legislation, but we clearly want to do that as soon as is practical. We are also committed to the new authority, to which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, referred, coming into being in the 2008-09 financial year.
Lord Elton: My Lords, could the Minister be a little more forthcoming and convincing in his statement of the actual advantages that will result from dismantling these two organisations and replacing them with another? Incidentally, when it comes to deciding whether to whip certain legislation, surely the Minister in charge of that legislation is very much a part of the usual channels.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, that is right. All I said was that these matters fall to be considered when the time comes. I am sorry that I was not convincing. Let me have another go at it. We think that the establishment of this new authority provides an opportunity for the creation of a single regulatory body responsible for the regulation and inspection of all functions relating to the whole range of human tissues, blood, organs, tissues, cells, gametes and embryos. By doing that, we are pulling together the very best expertise that is currently available in the two organisations, to which I pay tribute. It will also deliver a more cost-effective system of regulation. I would have thought that that is a pretty convincing argument.
Israel and Palestine: Talks
11.15 am
Lord Dykes asked Her Majesty’s Government:
When they next expect to table proposals at the Middle East quartet group for a resumption of direct talks between Palestine and Israel.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Triesman): My Lords, at the quartet meeting on 21 February, United States Secretary Rice discussed her trilateral meeting with Prime Minister Olmert and President Abbas on 19 February. At that meeting, Prime Minister Olmert and President Abbas agreed to meet again. The quartet
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Lord Dykes: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. The quartet is often accused of bias, with preconditions imposed on the Palestinian Government but not on Mr Olmert, who understandably presses for full official recognition. Should the UK and the EU not persuade Israel to take some goodwill confidence-building steps now, meeting its nearly 40 year-old international legal obligations with reductions in checkpoints, occupation forces, apartheid entry roads and illegal settlements to help secure direct talks in the near future?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, the quartet’s requirement that there should be recognition of the state of Israel and a peaceful process is an entirely legitimate one, but it is quite clear from the quartet’s views that Israel understands that it, too, needs to make serious progress. Some of the issues are of the kind that the noble Lord has just described. It must halt its settlement activities and the construction of the barrier on Palestinian land because those practices are also contrary to international law. There is unquestionably a balance of obligations on both sides.
Lord Wright of Richmond: My Lords, following the recent contact between the Prime Minister and Mahmoud Abbas and Ehud Olmert, there were suggestions in the press that the British Government might now be reconsidering their attitude towards contact with the democratically elected members of the Palestinian Authority. Will the Minister please confirm the British Government’s current policy and, following on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, say whether we still require Hamas to declare a renunciation of violence? If so, what we are doing to persuade the Israeli Government themselves to renounce violence which has created Palestinian fatalities in the last two weeks?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, we have been absolutely clear that the Israelis are bound by international law to behave in a proportionate way as they defend themselves from attack. They are also under attack and that is not to be forgotten. The Prime Minister has made it very clear that if it is possible for the new coalition Government to deal with the quartet on the basis of genuinely meaningful requirements for the negotiations to have any prospect of success, we will deal with all the parties in that joint process. That is, I believe, a step which is well within scope now for anybody who believes that the peaceful route is the route out of the impasse.
The Lord Bishop of Exeter: My Lords, the Minister will recall that one of the recommendations of the Baker-Hamilton report on Iraq talked about the important role of religious leaders in bringing about
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Lord Triesman: My Lords, in the whole of the peace process it has been well understood that a number of parties—religious leaders are among the forefront of those parties—play a significant role. There is no question that the energies of those parties need to be engaged. I do not know what will persuade people of any religious community not to leave an area if they feel under threat, but if we can get this peace process moving more directly and rapidly, and can engage religious leaders in that process, perhaps confidence will grow that staying is a real option.
Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, will the Minister go further on the outcome of the Mecca agreement, which was brokered by the Saudi Arabians? Has the new Administration, which includes Al Fatah and Hamas, been put in place? Is it in a position to speak for the Palestine Authority as a whole? What role are the Russians playing? Are they still part of the quartet because they seem to be pursuing a bilateral relationship with Hamas outside the quartet process?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, there may well be some discussions between quartet members, including Russia and Hamas, but I think that everyone has pledged themselves as matters stand to the quartet process. We have welcomed Saudi Arabia’s efforts to broker the agreement between Hamas and Al Fatah, and we welcome the extent to which that is producing intra-Palestinian reconciliation. The work on constructing a government is well under way. A number of ministries are now designated and some are still to be decided, but I believe the progress is now substantial.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, do the Government accept that the situation in Palestine is now increasingly unstable? I have received on the web today an analysis of the Palestinian economic and social crisis from the excellent Crown Centre for Middle East Studies at Brandeis University—not a particularly pro-Palestinian centre. It emphasises just how rapidly social and economic positions in the Occupied Territories are deteriorating, and calls on the quartet to reopen debate on the assistance provided and the border controls. They are leading to such rapid deterioration in conditions in the Palestinian territories that I fear violence will break out again.
Lord Triesman: My Lords, I share the fear that unless there is serious economic progress it is very likely to be a more and more disrupted region. There are obligations on all parts. On our part, aid is still going in substantial quantities from the United
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Battersea Arts Centre
11.23 am
Lord Dubs asked Her Majesty’s Government:
Whether they will make representations to Wandsworth Borough Council about the likely impact of the threatened closure of Battersea Arts Centre upon the arts in London.
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, as the Government spokesman for Wales in your Lordships’ House, I wish everyone a very happy St David’s Day.
Battersea Arts Centre makes a valuable contribution to the cultural and artistic life of Wandsworth, London and the UK. Through Arts Council England, the Government provide it in the region of £500,000 grant-in-aid support. I am pleased to report that Wandsworth Borough Council has agreed to extend its lease and grant to the centre, and I understand that the board of Battersea Arts Centre intends to take the building into a trust.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that Answer. Does he agree that the enormous amount of public support and enthusiasm for the Battersea Arts Centre, not only in Battersea but throughout London, has helped to persuade Wandsworth council to change its mind? However, the future of the arts centre is not yet totally secure. Will my noble friend further comment on the fact that, possibly as a result, the Wandsworth Museum is to be closed, which would be very detrimental to the cultural and historic sense of local community? What is the future of Wandsworth Museum?
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, my noble friend is right. It was the outcry from all parts of the political spectrum that seems to have saved Battersea Arts Centre, which is obviously a good thing. I can confirm that Wandsworth council has decided to close its museum. The decision was made by democratically elected members and, however wrong we think the decision, we have to accept it. Mr Mark Taylor, chief executive of the Museum Association, said yesterday:
“The whole process of closure of the museum is financially driven and it shows that local councillors clearly accept no responsibility for helping local people to understand their own culture and sense of place”.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, I declare an interest as a Battersea resident. I was delighted to hear what the Minister said about the museum. He did not
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Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, the noble Baroness is absolutely right. First, on the arts centre, the council has agreed to grant £85,000 next year and to extend the lease until March 2008. However, a group of trustees is now working with the council so that it can pass into community hands. My view, knowing the centre well, is that it will survive because it is such an extraordinarily important arts centre—something that cannot be said about all arts centres.
As for the museum, the decision has been made by the executive and is to be ratified by the full council on 17 March. If it is closed, 15 people will be made redundant and 10,000 objects dispersed. For those reasons, when a museum closes it can never be re-opened. The sadness is that about 30,000 people a year are visiting it, and 20 per cent of those are people of ethnic origin who want to look at exhibits telling them about their pasts. So, it is a great pity.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, in supporting the strong case that the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, made and in welcoming what the Government have said, I declare an interest as a patron of the JMK Trust. This unique charity annually awards prizes to the best young theatre director of the year, providing them with golden opportunities to mount performances at the BAC under the guidance of established colleagues. Surely, the Minister is aware that substantial parts of the audience who not only enjoy these performances but who support and learn from that quite remarkable charity are Battersea residents. Will Her Majesty’s Government do what they can to persuade and reinforce the changed position of Wandsworth, urging it to recognise the unique value that BAC has to its own community as well as to the wider community of arts?
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that question. One characteristic of the campaign has been national figures pointing out that this is an absolute centre of excellence, and that it must continue. My feeling, which others share, is that the council has realised this and will make sure that the museum’s future is secure. If there is any hint that that will not happen, then the outcry will continue.
I should point out that the outcry is not just local. I have an article here from the Daily Telegraph about the possible closure, arguing that it shows how the Conservative Party really needs to develop a new arts policy, and that if it does not, it will run into such problems with boroughs like Wandsworth. That comes not from the New Statesman, but from the cultural correspondent of the Daily Telegraph.
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Lord Addington: My Lords, as the Minister has praised the Battersea Arts Centre, would he be able to prepare a document that would tell other groups outside the country how they would be able to match its performance? Surely that would be one thing that could be taken out of this—a positive example to others, to ensure that they have a thriving arts centre and somewhere delivering the performing arts.
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that suggestion. I shall pass it back to the DCMS and report back to him on the department’s reaction.
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