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The cost of switchover for an average household, by the department’s own estimate, will be between £80 and £570. That is a large difference. An increase seven times greater than £80 does not exactly inspire confidence in the analysis of the figures prepared by the Government. However, the rewards will be great. There will be a greater choice of channels, better picture and sound reception and interactive services that will benefit many from the very young to the elderly at home.
I welcome the Bill. However, if it is to have a speedy passage through this House, the Minister will need to answer a number of questions.
5.15 pm
Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury: My Lords, I thank the Minister for setting out the purpose and aims of the Bill so clearly.
It is an important Bill, which will allow the Government to proceed with digital switchover and, crucially, as we have heard today, target assistance for the most vulnerable. It will allow data to be made available so that the Government can go ahead with a package of help for such people. We on these Benches welcome the principle of the Bill and the benefits that switchover will bring; namely, as mentioned by the
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However, we have concerns about where we are in the process; the methods and means mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Maxton; the fact that very limited information appears to be available; and the fact that much of that information is still not finalised. Switchover was first discussed in 1999—almost eight years ago. Why has it taken so long to reach the point at which we are today? Why, when the Bill has already been through another place, do we still not have all the details about the proposed help scheme?
The Government have decided that the BBC will administer the scheme as part of the new royal charter, agreement and licence fee settlement. However, as the Minister told us at the beginning of this debate, the BBC will not deliver the scheme on the ground. That function will be contracted out. As we can see from the Explanatory Notes on Clause 1,
Is not this getting close to brinksmanship?
Can we be assured that when the agreement with the BBC is finally reached, we shall receive the details? Is it not the case that unless decisions are made very soon, there will be no time to implement the scheme properly before it starts in the Borders in 2008? Is it not the case that the Whitehaven scheme, scheduled to start this autumn, will not, for example, use the same equipment as that likely to be used elsewhere? Is this a sensible way in which to proceed?
The Government are still in discussion with the BBC about its exact role. Due to what the BBC Trust called a challenging licence fee settlement, it
- “is seeking further reassurance from the Government that involvement with the scheme will not impact on the BBC’s programmes and services”.
Will the Minister reassure the House that the trust will receive those reassurances, that should matters go awry, the BBC will not in effect be left to carry the can, and that the Secretary of State, not the licence fee payers, will pick up any extra bill?
Together with everyone who has spoken across the House today, we would argue that the licence fee payer should not fund the scheme at all. However, under the Bill’s proposals, not only will the BBC oversee this targeted help scheme but it will be funded through the licence fee, thus distorting its function, as the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said.
I know that the Secretary of State’s view is that it is a broadcasting cost; it is not. As your Lordships have heard from so many, as with free TV licences for the over-75s, it is dictated by government social policy, and the Government should pay. The Government have set a figure of £600 million for the scheme, but we do not know how that figure has been arrived at. The limited scope of the Bill means that it appears to be impossible to clarify who exactly will be helped. It has emerged from answers to a range of parliamentary Questions that the number of people who will need help is growing. During the past year, it rose from 5 million to an estimated 7.1 million people. Obviously, this has cost implications. Like the noble
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I make a final point on the BBC’s role. Why, if it is to contract out the implementation of the scheme, does it need access to the detailed information that this Bill will provide? The agents on the ground need the detail; aggregate figures should be sufficient for the BBC. As the Minister anticipated, we would like to see a sunset clause designed to address our concern that information released should not be kept longer than needed.
The Government intend to introduce switchover region by region, starting with Whitehaven this autumn, as I mentioned. Switchover assistance will apparently be available in each region eight months before the final transmitter in a given region switches over—or the date on which a transmitter serving the individual switches over—and one month after. In other words, the Bill dies a month after the switchover period in each region. Can the Minister clarify when that one-month period begins? What happens to someone who moves during the process; for example, the old lady who leaves London in 2009, before it switches over, but moves to the Borders after the process there has finished? Is she entitled to any assistance and, if not, why not? For this same reason, these Benches do not support the belief of the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, that there should be a sunset clause region by region. We shall no doubt return to both these issues in more detail in Grand Committee.
I will not repeat the arguments that were so eloquently made, but these Benches share the concern expressed across the House about those in rented accommodation. I am particularly intrigued by the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, about those on housing benefit. I look forward to hearing the answer to that.
We welcome the fact that the Government have accepted the issue raised by my honourable friends in another place, the Member for Chesterfield and the Member for Bath, and have amended the Bill to enable the help scheme contractor to have access to information held by local authorities and health and social services boards on people registered blind and partially sighted. This will mean that those not over 75 and not on benefits, and so not registered with the Department for Work and Pensions, will not fall through the net and that, in accordance with the advice that the Minister told us the Government received, the contractor can proactively contact them. Thanks to this amendment, 60,000 blind and partially sighted people will now be eligible for assistance. We also congratulate the Government on ensuring that the information they receive will be in appropriate forms: Braille, large print and so on.
We are pleased that the process will be platform neutral; that people can choose how they wish to get their digital channels, but I was interested in the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, in that regard. The announcement yesterday that the BBC Trust has approved BBC management’s proposal to develop and launch Freesat is welcome
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Finally, we welcome assurances received from the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for broadcasting in another place that this will be a fluid process and that lessons learnt along the way will be acted upon. He said:
“We do not want to close the door on that process at any point”.—[Official Report, Commons, 29/1/07; col. 37.]
This seems an eminently sensible way to proceed with such a complex and huge project. I look forward to Grand Committee.
5.24 pm
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who spoke. They succeeded in worrying me that we will have an intensive Committee stage on this modest little Bill. However, given the nature of your Lordships’ House, I was prepared for some trenchant points.
The debate got off to a vigorous start. The noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, offered an alternative proposal for tackling switchover and helping those categories that we have defined as requiring help.
The noble Lord provided an alternative perspective of some significance, and he repudiated in some ways what the Bill states. For instance, he—and, I think, one or two other noble Lords—doubted whether my assertion that the Bill had written into it a sunset clause on information was satisfactory. He will be proposing a schedule to give greater definition to that. We will have time to debate that, and I am open-minded about constructive suggestions wherever they come from, particularly the opposition Front Bench.
We are all too well aware that we are dealing with sensitive information for a specific purpose against a fairly obvious timescale. Within that framework, the Bill provides the equivalent of a sunset clause by providing closure on that. Although we will discuss the matter further, I recognise the noble Lord’s rightly expressed anxiety.
The noble Lord asked other questions some of which, even at this early stage, I might be able to answer—I expect to be under greater pressure in Committee to answer certain questions. We are committed to the concept and the principle of providing support that is platform-neutral. The noble Lord asked whether claimants would get a free satellite service if no terrestrial service was available, and the answer is yes. We recognise the necessity of ensuring that people are treated fairly and equally, wherever they are. My noble friend Lord Maxton raised some rather more extensive issues than that. I will come on to those points in a moment.
The noble Lord, Lord Howard, asked some general questions about service provision. As far as the Government are concerned, this is a crucial principle in this legislation. At this stage, I can only acknowledge that the noble Lord disagrees with the Government’s approach to some of these problems. I have no doubt that he will articulate his position with great fervour in Committee and I will listen carefully
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The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester asked about the degree to which the help scheme could be extended to low-income families. He also mentioned that over-65s may need the same consideration as over-75s. I recognise the right reverend Prelate’s excellent motivation in seeking to extend help to the deserving wherever he identifies them. He will appreciate that the Government must draw lines on certain aspects of help and defend their position on the grounds of cost. In my opening contribution I referred to the simple reason why we emphasise the need for help to the over-75s; namely, that the take-up of digital among the over-75s is very low in comparison with the general population. It is about 45 per cent, whereas among the general population the figure is well over 70 per cent. The over-65s are very close to that figure. While we can clearly see a problem with the older age group, we are not able to identify a major barrier to the over-65s keeping up with the rest of the population. That is why we have identified that figure.
The national take-up rate of 79 per cent is almost matched by lower-income households, where 74 per cent have already gone digital. That goes to show the point that underlies the whole approach to the funding of the BBC and the significance of the role of the BBC. I might also add to that other television services; they mean a great deal to our citizens. That is why, even on very limited budgets, people are prepared to meet very considerable, obvious costs to be able to participate, like the rest of the nation, which shows that television provides for a range of obvious needs.
I have no doubt that the right reverend Prelate will press me on this in Committee and that we shall debate it further. He will recognise that the Government have drawn a line for very good reasons. He was the first to advance the point, which I anticipated that the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, would put with his usual perception and strength, about whether additional cost might impact on the BBC programme budget. I can give a categorical reassurance that we do not intend that to happen. If there are costs beyond the £600 million that has been identified, we intend that they will be analysed separately and come out of the public purse, so that they do not affect the planning, programme budgeting and other aspects of the BBC which are contained at present. There was scarcely a contribution to the debate that did not at some stage raise this very important point; the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, also raised it. I want to reassure all noble Lords on that cardinal point.
I was grateful to the right reverend Prelate for his testimony from the British Legion. Of course, we have been in widespread consultation with all groups that have a perspective on the needs of the over-75s and others, so I am grateful for the point that he made—that the Bill will be welcomed. I do not have the slightest doubt that the assistance that we intend to give will not only be welcomed among those who
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My noble friend Lord Maxton, as ever, anticipated that I would not follow him very closely down the route of technological change. I shall not do so, save to say that we are platform neutral on this assistance. We do not think that the technological change will move with quite the rapidity that he advances in his more optimistic vein, but the obvious point is that people will receive broadcasting signals—radio and television—through very different technologies compared with the present broadcasting mechanism. That is already going on to a limited extent. It will move apace, but we have a very real challenge with regard to terrestrial television. The Bill starts by addressing the switch from analogue to digital. I bear in mind that other dimensions will have to be taken into account, and have no doubt that the noble Lord will press these points upon me in Committee.
I am afraid that I cannot quite follow the noble Lord on Scottish local authorities. If he were right and I were wrong, I would currently be shuddering at the Dispatch Box. I would worry about nothing more than the consequences of devolution upon this kind of broadcasting strategy, and the Bill being caught athwart the issues of Scotland’s reserved powers. First, these are reserved powers on broadcasting. Legislation on the information that local authorities may give about their blind and partially sighted citizens is permissive. Whether they participate or not is therefore entirely their decision; no enforcement is involved. Local authorities are therefore not an issue, and I am not going to run foul of his worst fears that, in broadcasting, we are caught up with the proper powers of the Scottish Assembly. Far be it from me to raise the issues of the Scottish Assembly at this juncture, in the context of this modest little Bill.
The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, identified an important issue, which we must investigate in Committee to some degree. He will recognise that we take seriously whether certain tenants could be exploited because of the charges in force; the charges might be defrayed by housing benefit, but if that were not available individuals would suffer grievously. We will have to work through the details with the noble Lord in Committee. I do not have many technical answers to his point at this stage, except to say that we would worry about the success of the scheme if what he has identified—and I have no reason to doubt his information—proves to be a real problem. Because of the technical nature of his question, and because I am currently singularly ill-equipped to meet it, I shall not write to him, as suggested in my notes—that would be otiose at this stage—but expect that we can discuss the issues in Committee. I have no doubt that he has raised something of great interest to all interested in the Bill. There is no question that we would have to get help and support right if there were a development exploiting the switchover to particular pecuniary advantage, leaving some of our fellow citizens considerably worse off. I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising his point, and apologise for not being able
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Several noble Lords—including the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, and the noble Lord, Lord Fowler—indicated that because the scheme involved additional, and a different kind of, expenditure by the BBC, it would be subject to scrutiny by the National Audit Office. We had an intense debate on the whole question of the licence fee, and noble Lords opposite will recognise our principle on this. They are quite properly addressing themselves to the scrutiny of the scheme’s operation. I want to respond to the demands of noble Lords that we should proceed with some flexibility, and learn aspects as we go along. It would be extraordinary to think that all aspects of a scheme of this complexity had been fully covered at this point, but the issue of the role of the National Audit Office in relation to the BBC raises wider issues of principle. We have discussed those in the past, and I am not prepared to concede that point.
Viscount Astor: My Lords, the Minister implied that he objects to any role of the National Audit Office with regard to the BBC. Does he accept that it already has such a role regarding the BBC with the World Service, which is funded by the Foreign Office? It does not seem to be a problem there, and the department does not regard that as giving it any interference in any form of broadcasting control.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Viscount has, with his usual astuteness, identified the one area where the NAO has a role. Of course he will also recognise that as a particular funding mechanism for the BBC, outwith the licence fee arrangements. However, I hear what has been said, and no doubt he will press me in Committee. I will seek to respond as constructively as I can on that occasion, but he ought not to hold his breath on the basis of success in persuading me of that argument—at this stage, at least.
The noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter, asked specifically why the BBC will need the amount of data that the Bill identifies. In practice, the BBC will not get information if the scheme is run by a separate operator. There may be circumstances, however, where the BBC may need to get involved; for example, if the main scheme operator had to be removed. So, while the BBC stands as the responsible body charged with successful implementation of the scheme, we do not anticipate that in the contractual arrangements.
There was a question about some aspect of the costs involved in those, but I am not able to go into detail as contracts have not been signed on the matter. Yet the BBC would potentially need to get involved if there were contractor failure—something that we hope would not happen. Otherwise, we see the situation as one in which the terms being drawn up for the contractor are such that they guarantee the security of this information within the framework of the Bill. As I have emphasised all along, that information would solely be in relation to this scheme and would come to an end the moment that the scheme ended.
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We have had a useful and interesting debate that portends an interesting Committee. I have already identified one or two areas where I recognise that I will be pressed quite vigorously. If my answers this afternoon have not been totally comprehensive, it is merely because some of the points raised have been so
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On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Grand Committee.
- House adjourned at 5.44 pm.
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