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House of Lords
Tuesday, 30 January 2007.
The House met at half-past two: the LORD SPEAKER on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Southwark.
Civil Service: EU Nationals
Lord Trimble asked Her Majesty’s Government:
Whether they are under an obligation by European law or European directives to grant European Union nationals access to posts in the United Kingdom Civil Service; and whether they have any plans to do so.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the EC treaty guarantees to workers from each member state the right freely to reside and take up employment in other member states. In the United Kingdom, the European Communities (Employment in the Civil Service) Order 1991 and the European Economic Area Act 1993 had the effect of opening up Crown employment to nationals of the European economic area with the exception of those posts requiring special allegiance to the state, which are reserved for UK nationals.
Lord Trimble: I thank the Minister for that Answer. The Northern Ireland Office claims that EU legislation requires it to open up the latter posts, requiring special allegiance, to Irish nationals, as agreed at the recent meeting at St Andrews. The Northern Ireland Civil Service is small, with little interchange with the rest of the United Kingdom, but it has nevertheless maintained its ethos and integrity during difficult times. As it now faces a unique challenge in its future political masters, this is not the time for competition from a larger body which does not share the same ethos, particularly on political independence. Nor would such a change be consistent with the Good Friday agreement. Does the Minister not agree that the parachuting-in of Ministers with no organic connection with Northern Ireland society should not now be replaced by parachuting in similarly handicapped Permanent Secretaries with potentially conflicting interests?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the Permanent Secretary, for one, would be a reserved post, so there would be no question of “parachuting in”. I recognise the implications for Northern Ireland. What is at stake for the British Civil Service, however, is the ability to tap into the pool of talent represented by those from other countries who have the right to live and work here, and increasing the availability of such people for posts in the Civil Service while recognising that certain posts and functions, such as the Security Service, will necessarily be reserved for British nationals.
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Lord Soley: My Lords, would it not be a serious mistake to isolate Northern Ireland from Civil Service developments elsewhere? I have always had my doubts about the advantages of the 1922 restrictions limiting access to the Northern Ireland Civil Service. The people of Northern Ireland deserve, and are able to get, the best people for the best job, wherever they come from in the UK and the European Union.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, my noble friend is knowledgeable about Northern Ireland. He will recognise that that kind of thinking led the Prime Minister to say in October that he thought it timely that we regularised the rules on aliens seeking opportunities in the Civil Service, both in Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. That is why an Order in Council is being proposed, which will be subject to parliamentary consideration, to give effect to this.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I recognise that there is broader issue for the British Civil Service as a whole, but does the Minister accept that we on these Benches welcome the open attitude of Her Majesty’s Government to recruiting to major Whitehall departments nationals from other EU member states, some of whom rise to quite senior positions? There is no question of mixed loyalties. Could not the same open principle be progressively applied to Northern Ireland? It is not just a question of southern Irish nationals, but others from elsewhere in the European Union. We read in the newspapers, for example, that some of the Catholics joining the Police Service of Northern Ireland are Polish.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the Order in Council will apply to Northern Ireland as well as to the rest of the United Kingdom. Individuals will be chosen on their merits and will be selected in accordance with the Civil Service rules on selection. We are conscious that 79,000 posts in Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs out of 97,000 public service posts in the Civil Service are reserved. That does not make a great deal of sense when we need to fill the posts with people with the requisite talent and ability; and that is why the order is being introduced.
Baroness Knight of Collingtree: My Lords, the Minister has not said what examination successes those who are given these posts have to achieve prior to their engagement. I invite him to do so now.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Baroness will recognise that a massive number of skills are necessary across the Civil Service. At the highest level, the Civil Service examinations are regarded as among the most testing in the country, but at lower levels, different tests are applied. I assure the House that anyone who applies for a Civil Service post will be treated fairly, but he or she will get the post only if they merit it.
Lord Foster of Bishop Auckland: My Lords, should we not pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, for his enormous contribution to trying to bring
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Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I shall resist the second invitation, but the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, stands on the record.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, do Her Majesty’s Government think that the British people would have voted in 1975 to remain in what they were assured was a common market if they had known that they were voting for this sort of arrangement?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, this sort of arrangement obtains in France. Does the noble Lord think that the French are any less jealous of their position or any less nationalistic than the British?
EU: Mobile Telephones
2.44 pm
Lord Teverson asked Her Majesty’s Government:
What view they are taking in the Council of Ministers concerning the proposal by Commissioner Reding to reduce the costs of mobile phone calls across European borders.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Truscott): My Lords, Her Majesty’s Government have supported the European Commission’s objective of reducing the cost of international mobile roaming phone calls for consumers in Europe. In order to ensure that this objective is achieved, we have worked closely with the European Commission, other member states and the European Parliament. Our aim is to achieve a solution that is beneficial for consumers, will maintain competition and innovation in this important sector, and is practical to implement. We have received considerable support and co-operation from other member states in working towards this goal and look forward to that continuing. We think that an agreement on the regulation is possible before the summer.
Lord Teverson: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. As he will be well aware, a handful of operators have great power in the European mobile telephone market. Like many other noble Lords who have made calls abroad or called home from abroad, I have been astounded by some of the extortionate charges that appeared on my bill the next month. Do the Government really intend to back this legislative instrument laid down by the Commission, or is the intention to dilute its present form?
Lord Truscott: My Lords, we support the development of this regulation and hope, as I said, to
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Lord Maxton: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the rapid expansion of low-cost Voice over Internet Protocol services will automatically force phone companies to reduce costs because they are provided free over the internet using both computers and, increasingly, mobile phones? Without any interference from the EU, that will happen.
Lord Truscott: My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. Those sorts of competitive pressures will bring down prices in this market, and telephony technology is developing very rapidly.
Lord Freeman: My Lords, is the Minister aware that a Select Committee of your Lordships’ House has just begun an inquiry into mobile phone international charges and hopes to report before Easter? Will he therefore talk to the business managers and seek to ensure that there is a debate in this House before the European Parliament votes? That is not normally the situation with debates on Select Committee reports, which normally occur after the horse has bolted.
Lord Truscott: My Lords, I believe that this is an issue for the usual channels. I will certainly bear in mind the noble Lord’s suggestion.
Lord Dykes: My Lords, I declare an interest in the same inquiry and the same sub-committee. Will the Minister renew the Government’s congratulations to the European Commission? After it announced this investigation into roaming charges, three companies are abolishing the charges and two more are substantially reducing them. The Commission has now announced a drive against excessive bank charges on cards and accounts and to ordinary customers. Will the Government act in the same way with the Commission on the bank inquiry as well?
Lord Truscott: My Lords, we welcome the action which the Commission is taking to bring down prices for consumers in all fields.
Lord Berkeley: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that a 40 to 60 per cent reduction in charges is much too little? My last bill was £7.50 for downloading just 1 megabyte, which is nothing these days. Surely the Government need to do much more to get charges down to a competitive rate.
Lord Truscott: My Lords, that is what we are currently discussing in negotiating the reductions. We need to ensure that the industry remains competitive,
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Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, on a day on which Mr Sarkozy is campaigning for the French elections among 300,000 French citizens and voters in London, and when we already have perhaps the same number of British citizens living or owning homes in France, is it not time to pay much more attention to reducing the cost of all these types of cross-border transactions?
Lord Truscott: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord. That is why we are supporting this regulation and negotiating to achieve a good result for consumers not only in the UK but across the European Union.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, my GP recently gave me her private telephone number and I rang it to ask for some sleeping pills. Her reply was, “I am in Cairo”. Who will pay for that call?
Lord Truscott: My Lords, I am sorry to tell the noble Baroness that you both will.
London: Congestion Charge
2.49 pm
Lord Trefgarne asked Her Majesty’s Government:
Whether they have made a recent assessment of the implementation of Section 295 and Schedule 23 (“Road user charging”) of the Greater London Authority Act 1999.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, implementation of the central London congestion charging scheme, including any extension to the scheme, and associated monitoring are matters for Transport for London and the mayor. The department continues to monitor with interest the impact of the scheme and its development.
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Does he not agree—following the departmental scrutiny to which he referred, I hope that he does—that one aspect of the congestion charge remains unjust? That is the arrangement by which those of us who pay in advance and then for perfectly good reasons sometimes do not enter the congestion charge area have no means of getting a refund or even of transferring the payment to another day. Some people, especially those who pay weekly in advance, suffer seriously from that difficulty. Will the Minister draw that matter to the attention of the mayor?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the noble Lord is right that it is the mayor's responsibility. Of course I undertake to draw his comments to the attention of the mayor's office.
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Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, has any progress been made in recovering payment from the embassies in London that have so far declined to pay, in particular the United States?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the noble Lord anticipates my answer. It is, rightly, a matter for the mayor, but I shall make certain inquiries.
Baroness Hanham: My Lords, is the Minister aware that Transport for London has already said that congestion will increase with the increase in the zone and that there will not be adequate recompense from the extension to the congestion zone? In view of that, what is the Minister's view of road pricing in general and specifically in central London?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I am slightly surprised by the noble Baroness's comments on the impact of the western extension. The data presented to us suggest that congestion in the area will fall by about 15 to 20 per cent and that traffic will be reduced by about 13 to 17 per cent, so there will be the beneficial impact of reduced CO2 emissions, particulate emissions and nitrous oxide emissions. On those grounds, the scheme is clearly beneficial. I do not accept at all the noble Baroness's presumptions.
Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, what progress are the Government making generally on road pricing, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, referred, and, in particular, lorry use charging, especially for foreign lorries, which pay nothing to use our roads? The state of repair of those lorries is awful. The latest VOSA report shows that 42.7 per cent of lorries with trailers stopped by VOSA were unroadworthy. That scandal should be tackled.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I certainly accept the noble Lord’s concern; the department is giving it close attention. The noble Lord followed up what the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, said about national road pricing schemes. We continue to monitor how congestion charging is working. We believe that a national road pricing scheme would be a very significant move forward, but we gain valuable practical experience from local schemes and want to continue monitoring those before we make any further policy developments in that area.
Lord Crickhowell: My Lords, as Mr Livingstone has ignored the representations made by Wandsworth Borough Council about the added congestion, the great inconvenience and serious environmental damage that will be caused as traffic from the west is forced to travel several extra miles to cross the river at Chelsea Bridge, have the Government any powers to intervene to prevent that and many other wholly avoidable consequences of an ill thought-out scheme?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I know that the party opposite takes exception to the development of congestion charging. It made lots of allegations about the potential impact when the scheme was
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Lord Redesdale: My Lords, one of the benefits of the congestion charge has been a massive increase in the number of cyclists on the road, which has major environmental benefits. The Department for Transport seems lacking in its promotion of things to do with bicycles, although Transport for London has done a great deal of work. What are the Government doing to educate the Department for Transport in the benefits of bicycling?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I thought it was now a given that people were very keen to get on their bike and travel in central London. The Leader of the Opposition is very keen on cycling, as are we. I like cycling; lots of people cycle in Brighton. So, yes, we are very enthusiastic about cycling; we are pleased to see that it is more widespread.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, did the Minister see the No. 10 website this morning and the number of people who have signed the petition against road pricing, which now stands at 610,000? Will the Government take some notice of that petition, and if not, why not?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I look at the No. 10 website from time to time. I always find it an instructive, learning experience. I am aware of the petition to which the noble Lord has referred, but I think we have to look at the bigger picture. Clearly there have been many benefits, not least the increased use of public transport and a reduction in pollution in central London as a result of congestion charging. As I said, we shall continue to monitor and support the scheme as it is.
Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, the Minister has not really answered the point made by my noble friend Lady Hanham. The Government announced earlier that they would introduce an enabling Bill on road charging, which somehow seems to have got lost. The Minister might like to comment on that. Surely if they did have such a Bill, it might be better to abandon congestion charging in London and go ahead with road charging, which would levy variable charges in various parts. As the Government are so keen on those charges for London, it would be better to have variable charging according to congestion in that area. Perhaps the Minister could comment properly rather than give an evasive answer.
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