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House of Lords
Wednesday, 24 January 2007.
The House met at three o’clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Manchester): the LORD SPEAKER on the Woolsack.
Remembrance Day
Lord Wallace of Saltaire asked Her Majesty’s Government:
Whether they plan to put greater emphasis in their annual Remembrance Day services on the role played by other states in ensuring victory.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, there are currently no plans to change the emphasis of, or the representative participants in, the annual Service of Remembrance at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday. The two minutes’ silence, the wreath laid by Her Majesty the Queen and the other tributes placed on the Cenotaph are dedicated to all those who have suffered and died in war. The ceremony itself is traditional in nature and its emphasis remains remembrance.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. This is, after all, our biggest annual symbol of national memory. It rather distresses me that it is so white and unilateralist. It looks as if it is a symbol of the UK Independence Party. On their major celebration of national unity on 14 July, the French Government often invite units from other countries to participate—including, two years ago, a substantial number of British units—in order to symbolise the co-operation they have with other countries. Moroccan, Algerian and other troops who fought with the French in the Second World War have also attended. Could we not help to educate our younger generation, who do not remember the Second World War, about the combined effort, involving the Poles, the Indians, the Canadians and the Americans, who fought with us in the Second World War and died alongside our men and women?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the ceremony is a remembrance ceremony; it is not a celebration of nationality. The French have their service on 11 November at the Arc de Triomphe and follow very much the same pattern as we do. If the noble Lord is indicating that we are not making a sufficient impact on the young, I should emphasise that more than 80 per cent of Britons, young and old, regard the two minutes’ silence and Remembrance Day as of great significance. Of course, all members who have served in Her Majesty’s Armed Forces under British command, who cover a very wide range of ethnic communities across the world and 14 faiths, are represented at the national Service of Remembrance.
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Lord Dholakia: My Lords, there are some very good practical examples of how the contribution of people who fought during the world war and lost their lives is recognised. The noble Baroness, Lady Flather, is to be congratulated on establishing the Memorial Gates on Constitution Hill, but is it not time that that contribution was also recognised during the Remembrance Day service by bringing the different nations together?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the issue is bringing different communities together in an act of remembrance of the sacrifice of all those who died in war. The service has its origins in the commemoration of the First World War but it will be recognised that it also commemorates all those who died in subsequent wars. The representative nature of what takes place at the Cenotaph, and of those who participate in the ceremony, reflect the great diversity of all those who made their contribution to the freedom of this country and others in the First World War, the Second World War and subsequent conflicts.
The Lord Bishop of Manchester: My Lords, is the Minister aware that a revised order of the Remembrance Sunday service for use across the nation has been produced by Churches Together in Britain and Ireland in consultation with the Royal British Legion, of which I declare an interest as the national chaplain? The notes to the service suggest appropriate participation of other faiths to enable Muslims, Hindus and others, many of whom have family members from earlier generations among the fallen, to join liturgically in those local acts of remembrance when it is appropriate to the local context to do so.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for reminding the House of that fact. I have stood at remembrance services in Oldham alongside Lord Mayors from the Pakistani community and from the Bangladeshi community. I do not think there is any doubt that the whole of Oldham participated in those experiences.
Lord St John of Fawsley: My Lords, cannot we for once leave well alone?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, we intend to.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, at a time when there is a certain amount of prejudice against Polish immigrants, and when we face a number of concerns about south Asian and other minorities, would it not be a good idea to remind the younger generation of the contributions that people from those countries made to our common effort in the Second World War?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, we all recognise what the noble Lord has rightly emphasised. It is emphasised in the Royal British Legion teaching packs that are produced for schools. Some 50,000 have been produced to form part of the teaching of
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Baroness Fookes: My Lords, as president of the War Widows’ Association of Great Britain, I was privileged—I use that word advisedly—to take part in last year’s service at the Cenotaph. I was amazed at the cross-section of different peoples and young people who were present. Indeed, noble Lords may be aware that the war widows were walking behind the Gurkhas; or trying to march behind them. They got ahead of us because they marched so fast.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, of course the Gurkhas are always represented in the march past, and their contribution is appreciated. I reassure the noble Lord who asked this Question that there is great concern that young people be aware of the sacrifices of the past. I merely set out to reassure him that this is going on, and all evidence indicates that it is appreciated by young people.
Immigration: X-rays
3.07 pm
Lord Avebury asked Her Majesty’s Government:
When they decided to discontinue the use of X-rays to assist in age determination for immigration purposes.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, this Government have not commissioned the use of X-rays to assess age. We are aware that some age assessments by local authorities are supported by X-ray analysis. We are considering a change to our policy, as we need to improve age assessment procedures to stop the abuse of the asylum and children’s support system caused by adults claiming to be children.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, was not the procedure of using medical or dental X-rays on children for age determination brought to an end by William Whitelaw, as he was then, in February 1982? No official X-rays have been taken of children since then for the reasons given by the British Dental Association and other professional bodies: the procedures are inaccurate, inappropriate and unethical. Will the Minister acknowledge that there are no studies that would enable one to compare the dental development of a child seeking asylum at one of our ports of entry against data from populations in the countries of origin, such as Eritrea or China, and to make a reasonably accurate assessment?
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Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, it is certainly true that the policy on this was settled in 1982, but things have changed since then, and there have been improvements in the reliability of the use of X-ray material for age determination. I accept the general point often made that there is no absolute precision. Several of our EU partners, such as Denmark, the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden, use X-ray records and X-rays as a way of helping them to decide the age of a young person.
Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, does the Minister not agree that the consensus in medical opinion is that it is totally inappropriate and, indeed, unethical to expose young people to even the minimal radiation involved in taking such X-rays? It is a potentially harmful technique.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I do not accept the noble Lord’s thesis. X-rays are commonly used in dental procedures. Many noble Lords will doubtless have had an X-ray taken of their teeth recently. There are, I accept, some concerns about this, which is why we are approaching the issue with care and sensitivity.
Lord Dholakia: My Lords, would the Minister consider seeking the opinion of the British Medical Association before adopting such a policy in this country?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, we intend to consult fully on this and there have already been some consultations. That organisation is among those that we would consult.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, is there not a very practical measure that the Government could introduce, which has so far proved successful in America in determining age and in protecting children who arrive at airports with an adult who cannot prove that they are the child’s parent or guardian? Why not start a system whereby the child must have a separate interview, away from that adult, to try to get to the truth of the matter, rather than expose them, perhaps, to the risk of being taken away by a trafficker?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, that is a practical suggestion; no doubt those interviewing techniques are used from time to time. Most of our concerns are focused on unaccompanied asylum-seeking children. One of the most important of those concerns is child protection.
Double Summer Time: Tourism
3.12 pm
Lord Lee of Trafford asked Her Majesty’s Government:
What consideration has been given to the effect of double summer time on the United Kingdom’s domestic tourism industry.
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Truscott): My Lords, there are potential advantages and disadvantages to a change in summer time arrangements, which would have an impact on a range of industries, including tourism. We consider the present situation a satisfactory compromise between those who prefer lighter mornings and those who prefer lighter evenings. We are not convinced that a change to our winter time and summer time arrangements would be in the best interests of the UK. Therefore, there are no plans to change the summer time arrangements.
Lord Lee of Trafford: My Lords, does the Minister not agree that no single happening would give a greater boost to our domestic tourism industry than double summer time? The industry estimates extra revenue of something like £3 billion per year. Given the added annual savings of 300 serious casualties and 3 per cent off our national electricity bill, and the support of the Tourism Alliance, RoSPA, Sport England, Age Concern, the National Obesity Council and the Heathrow Association for the Control of Aircraft, does he not agree that the case for double summer time is now compelling?
Lord Truscott: My Lords, there are differing points of view on this matter. My advice is that climate, as much as a lack of light, precludes outdoor tourism activities in winter. Therefore, it would not have quite the impact that the noble Lord suggests. Portugal abandoned Central European Time after finding that it did not work as expected and did not achieve the expected energy savings. The number of deaths and serious injuries on the roads is very regrettable, but has been declining since original studies were made. Obviously, it should be addressed by a number of policies, including improving road safety.
Lord Rogan: My Lords, does the Minister acknowledge that British trade and industry potentially suffers the loss of business with customers in mainland Europe through being in a different time zone for at least two, and potentially four, hours per working day?
Lord Truscott: My Lords, there are three different time zones within the European Union. The Government have received no expressions of interest from business in changing the current summer time arrangements. There is, of course, no legal impediment to businesses changing the times when they operate.
Baroness Billingham: My Lords, is the Minister aware of a recently formed all-party group on the lighter evenings Bill, with distinguished Members from all sides of this House? They share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Lee, that there is great potential benefit from an experiment of one or two years. On Friday, there is a Private Member’s Bill addressing this in the Commons.
I support all that has been said on this. Surely the Minister would agree that we have a crisis of childhood obesity, and that we could give children an
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Lord Truscott: My Lords, I note my noble friend’s points. I am aware of the all-party group. There are different views on this matter, but the last experiment where we looked at extending lighter evenings, between 1968 and 1971, unfortunately proved unpopular and was abandoned after a vote in Parliament.
Lord Lang of Monkton: My Lords, I urge the Minister to stand firm in his policy position. Does he accept that any marginal benefit of making our time zone closer to that of Europe would be more than off-set by the massive differences between the east coast of America and Greenwich Mean Time, and still more by that between the west coast of America and Greenwich Mean Time?
Lord Truscott: My Lords, the noble Lord has a valid point. The other argument is that the position varies greatly across the UK. In particular, farmers, construction workers and postal workers in the north and Scotland would not be in favour of changing summer time.
Baroness Greengross: My Lords, does the Minister not agree that the actual danger of accidents on the road, and the actual and perceived danger of crimes against the person, are much greater at night, when it is dark, than in the early morning? How many elderly people and young children must die or be seriously injured before this sensible experiment is introduced?
Lord Truscott: My Lords, the noble Baroness has a point and makes it well, but my department’s view is that you will not change criminality by changing the hours of summer time. Criminals may just differ in their activity. On road safety, there were 44,642 deaths or serious injuries on the roads in 1998. By 2004, this figure had fallen by 12,457. I agree that more needs to be done, but at least road safety has improved over the past few years.
Lord Lawson of Blaby: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the whole House deeply regrets the absence of the noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw, this afternoon, as he will not be able to take part in these exchanges? In his absence, perhaps the best one can do is to remind the Minister that when the noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw, asked about this, he got an encouraging reply from the Minister responding. That has not been the case today. What has caused the Government to change their tune?
Lord Truscott: My Lords, I am not sure that the Government have changed their tune. As far as I am aware, this was and remains the Government’s policy.
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Lord Willoughby de Broke: My Lords—
Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords—
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Rooker): My Lords, it is time to hear from the Labour Benches.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, is it not the case that the Department of Trade and Industry has one view and the Department for Transport has an entirely different view? The road safety arguments adduced by my noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham in answering a Question from the noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw, are absolutely convincing—certainly for many of us on this side of the House. Can the Minister at least give an assurance that if Mr Yeo’s Private Member’s Bill in the other place makes progress, the Government will not attempt to block it?
Lord Truscott: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his intervention and reference to the Department for Transport. Unfortunately—or perhaps luckily—I am here today to answer on behalf of the Department of Trade and Industry.
Lord Willoughby de Broke: My Lords, does the Minister agree that there are better ways of dealing with child obesity than mucking about with the daylight saving hours?
Lord Truscott: My Lords, I think the noble Lord makes a valid and interesting point.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, will the Government take advice from their chief scientist on the climate change implications of this proposal?
Lord Truscott: My Lords, the Government are always willing to take advice.
Viscount Montgomery of Alamein: My Lords, in view of the fact that the Minister is answering for the Department of Trade and Industry, is he not aware that the CBI and other trade organisations are thoroughly in favour of the Bill which is to be discussed on Friday, and are we to understand from what the Minister said that the Government are going to turn it down?
Lord Truscott: My Lords, I was mistaken when I said that I answered for the Department of Trade and Industry. Of course as I stand at this Dispatch Box I answer for the Government and the position I outline is the Government’s position.
Lord Harrison: My Lords, my noble friend mentioned the period in 1968 when the experiment was conducted. Does he have any useful statistics or views published by the tourism and leisure industry at that time that might be made available to the House to say whether it was beneficial to it?
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