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I am reluctant to talk about the Middle East because it requires more considered responses and cannot be dealt with off the top of one’s head. We are committed to the road map. I cannot go beyond the statements published from the European Council and that which the Foreign Secretary made in the other place. I do not see why anyone should be upset or take a misleading view, as implied in the noble Lord’s reference to the common asylum system. Most ordinary people would say that it was about time that we had a common asylum system so that one country was not played off against another, but that need not raise horror headlines. We are trying to get our house in order in a very difficult area of policy, where it has not been done before.
6.13 pm
Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, can I press the Minister a little more on a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford? What assurances or guarantees did the Government receive from the Government of Cyprus that, on the 27 chapters of the Turkish negotiation which are not frozen, negotiations can now go ahead unhindered and not be blocked by the Cypriots as they have been hitherto? If they did not receive any guarantees or assurances on that point I am not sure that it was worth a great deal.
As I understand it, the eight chapters that have been frozen in the Turkish succession negotiations have been so as a consequence of the unwillingness of the Turkish Government to accept a set of proposals from the Finnish presidency on the implementation of the extension of the EU-Turkey customs union agreement to cover the new member states and on the freeing-up of trade between the north of Cyprus and the EU. What penalty is being imposed on the Government of Cyprus, who also rejected precisely those same proposals? If the answer is none, is not that an unfair and unjustified discrimination?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, on the first question of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, I do not think that there is any qualification to the 27 chapters. Negotiations can move forward on 27 of the 35 chapters of the acquis. I have no caveat to that. I may not have the nuances right, but I make no qualification to that answer. I understand the sensitivity of the matter. I could read out further statements, but I do not think that it would be helpful to go beyond what I said to the noble Lord. Given the importance of the UN/Cyprus settlement process and the expert involvement of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, anything I might say outside my notes will cause confusion. But on the main point of the noble Lord’s question, no member state has erected any barrier at the European Council to moving forward on the 27 unfrozen chapters.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, I refer the Minister to a revealing confession in paragraph 3 of the Presidency Conclusions, which admits that the EU is,
as it pursues the proposed constitution, after it was voted down by the French and Dutch people.
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Can the noble Lord confirm or deny that this means that a number of new initiatives, all of them giving more power to Brussels at the expense of the member states, are going ahead, mostly based on Article 308 of the treaty establishing the European Communities? Can the noble Lord let us know what those initiatives are? If he cannot do so now, will he be good enough to write to me, putting a copy in your Lordships’ Library?
I further put it to the noble Lord that Brussels is clearly up to its usual trick of quietly adopting new powers for itself, even if there is no clear legal base. When we come to the next intergovernmental conference, those new powers will be taken as read and incorporated into the treaties because they are already there. If we do not like it, we should have said so at the time. That is why I am asking the questions now. I would be grateful if the noble Lord could assure me that I am wrong and that any new powers have a clear legal base. To confirm his point, if that is what he is going to say, I ask him again to write to me with the initiatives which are currently going through based on Article 308.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, the fact that we are in this reflective period about the constitution does not mean that all the agreements and treaties reached in Europe in the past few decades have been nullified or are inoperable. The noble Lord assumes that nobody should do anything, even though the existing treaty provisions allow for it. I am happy to give him the chapter and verse that he asked for, but the underlying assumption of his question cannot be valid. Many existing treaties are operating in the normal course of events. Nobody ever implied or inferred that that would not be the case. I reject what the noble Lord is implying because it is simply not the case.
Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, my noble friend glides effortlessly from single farm payments, through Northern Ireland to emission standards. He deserves the House’s warmest congratulations. I wish to ask him questions on enlargement and on the sections of the Presidency Conclusions in respect of migration.
On enlargement, the Presidency Conclusions refused to set any target dates in respect of the western Balkans and made decisions relating to management and quality of negotiations. Does this not amount in effect to a higher hurdle for some potential new entrants, particularly Croatia, which arguably has a better case and is better prepared than Bulgaria and Romania?
A large section of the conclusions on migration relate to what is termed a “comprehensive” European migration policy. The background is the enormous pressure on the Canaries, where more than 26,000 illegal migrants arrived this year from west Africa. Tragically, thousands died en route either to the Canaries, Malta or Italy. We are told that the capacity of FRONTEX would rapidly be enhanced; we are told that there will be a centralised record of technical equipment, the creation of a European surveillance system and greater efficiency in co-operation on search
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Lord Rooker: My Lords, on that latter point, I have not seen the term “European migration agency” in any of the briefs that I have read. I can return only to the Statement, which said:
“The Council also agreed to have a common European asylum system in place by the end of 2010, starting next year, with a preliminary evaluation of its first phase”.
Therefore, this issue will be upfront and is not for the long distance. The matter will come before the House early on.
On my noble friend’s first point on enlargement, as I understand it, Croatia, Macedonia and Turkey are in the queue. I do not know the dates and I do not think that they have been set. It is accepted that there is a long way for the negotiations to go. Indeed, as I said, regarding the western Balkans, there is no evidence of a higher hurdle being put in front of those countries. Their aspirations and those of other countries to join the European Union are there and all of them know what the rules are—they are not changing and they include the rule of law, democratic systems and other attributes of the European Union. It does mean a lot of change for some countries compared with the way that they have been operating their societies. If they think that the prize is worth it, they will make the changes. In the negotiations, each application will be dealt with on its merits, on a country-by-country basis.
Lord Teverson: My Lords, may I press the Minister further on climate change, particularly the emissions trading system? I very much welcome the communiqué’s concentration on climate change and the fact that there will be a major strategic discussion next spring that will, I hope, lead to real action over the long term. However, we can sometimes be too pessimistic about the emissions trading system. First, a huge amount of carbon trading has taken place since the scheme was introduced and, although it has many flaws, the current system is a financial market that works and has an important operating base in the United Kingdom. We can already show that climate change management can start to work through market mechanisms. We should not underestimate its success so far.
Having said that, the system is now entering a phase—leading up to 2012—that will decide its success. For the moment, much is needed to ensure that the system works effectively between now and 2012 in terms of allocations among industries and which industries are included. What practical conversations have there been between heads of Government in this key area to ensure that the 2008 to 2012 period for the emissions trading system works effectively, so that it can be one of the major global tools for climate control, given that one in five of the world’s carbon emissions comes from the European Union? The amount is, admittedly, smaller than that of China, but we are still a major player globally.
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Lord Rooker: My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. I agree with him that we should not be apologetic about starting the emission trading system. A price has already been put on the product. It is early days and there will be changes. I do not know whether it was discussed in more detail than I indicated in the Statement, but the fact is that we are working with the Commission to encourage a strengthening of the European emissions trading system.
The EU heads agreed that climate change and energy should be considered together. The energy policy contains many of the levers that we want for a transition to a low carbon economy. Good progress has been made on climate change and energy security under the Finnish presidency. The German presidency will start in January. Germany has announced upfront that climate change will be a key feature of its presidency.
We look forward to a spring European Council, which is likely to have a strong focus on climate change and energy issues. We will play a central role in ensuring that the EU continues to demonstrate its commitment to tackling these issues. We need to make some changes to policy; and to be ambitious and not mealy-mouthed about it. The emissions trading system will probably require some changes. But the fact is that once the Governments have set a price on the market, the market will perform. I hope that in future that can work as well as it does in other areas.
Lord Williamson of Horton: My Lords, first, I welcome the non-reference in this Statement to any constitutional treaty. There is no need to bore the British public with that; it is, after all, the season to be merry.
Secondly, I welcome very much the emphasis put on the strategic importance of enlargement, not just the individual issues in relation to one or another country. Overall, enlargement is a vital part of what is happening in the European Union. The more we stress it the better.
Finally, I draw to the Minister’s attention a point about migration. The Statement promises “detailed action” in 2007 on a number of important issues. It quite clearly says that that is what the EU is trying to do. This is an issue that the public is much concerned with. I invite the Minister to indicate to his colleagues the importance of respecting a promise which is put in here; otherwise, we will have a counterproductive effect.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I will take the last point first. The noble Lord is absolutely right: migration is important. It is important for legislators, Government and opinion-formers to be upfront about this because that can prevent misleading tabloid headlines. That is the reality. If you do not discuss it and do not accept that it is an issue, then you are more likely to have the agenda led by the headlines in the press. They can sometimes be less than factually accurate—I will put it in that way. The point is well made by the noble Lord, and I will ensure that my colleagues are made aware of it.
I am grateful for the noble Lord’s point about the strategic importance of enlargement. Obviously, there was a discussion about Turkey. Turkey did not form a
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The noble Lord made a happy reference to the fact that good tidings were around because there was not a big discussion of the constitutional treaty, for reasons that I hope I have explained.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, I am afraid that I am going to break the consensus on the admission of Turkey. I believe that Turkey is not a European country. Indeed, by the time it is admitted its population will be 90 million, the largest population in the European Union and it will be dominant. I imagine that I am in a minority on that issue.
What is meant by “justice and home affairs”? Does it mean that the Government are about to give up the veto on all matters relating to justice and home affairs? What is the latest situation on that?
As regards asylum, there is a United Nations policy on that. How will any agreement by the European Union affect the United Nations policy? Perhaps the Minister could remind me whether the decisions will be taken by QMV or unanimity.
Finally, I note this declaration at the end of paragraph 3:
“The European Council reaffirms the importance of commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Treaties of Rome in order to confirm the values of the European integration process”.
I had understood that Her Majesty’s Government were in favour of the European Union being an organisation of nation states co-operating together, not a process of integration. That is bound to lead eventually to a European superstate, or a country called Europe. I really would like to know the Government’s policy on that, and the Opposition’s for that matter.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, to be honest the Government’s policy is set out in the Statement. My noble friend Lord Stoddart—for he is still my noble friend—raises scepticism about Turkey, and he is of course entitled to his views. However, as I have made clear, Turkey is of strategic importance. It is a large state but it will not join the European Union for some years, as negotiations will take a while.
As I indicated in answer to an earlier question, Turkey has made huge changes in recent years by abolishing the death penalty, by significantly reducing torture—it should not be doing that anyway, but it is significantly reducing—and by ensuring constitutional rights for women and improved cultural rights for minority groups. The EU accession process has been a catalyst for that reform, which has to be good, while Turkey has been an incredibly loyal and active member of NATO. Therefore, it does not quite fit to separate Turkey out as though it is some wayward state that has nothing to do with Europe.
There is no proposal to give up the veto at the Justice and Home Affairs Council, and I have no real details so far as celebrating the 50th anniversary of the Treaties of Rome is concerned. I understand that 2007 will be a year for celebrating several treaties—whether separately or together, I do not know.
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Lord Hylton: My Lords, will British and EU diplomacy seek to persuade Israel that acceptance by Hamas or by any other Palestinian Government of the principles—if not the detail—of the Arab League peace proposal, sometimes known as the Saudi proposal, would amount to de facto recognition of Israel? Would that not open the way to much needed negotiations?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I cannot go beyond what the Statement said about legitimacy. I cannot remember the phrase now, but I will come to it; it was about accepting “a legitimate Palestinian Government”. I do not want to say that we would adopt one set of proposals, because of the nuances involved. Quite clearly, we want the road map for the Middle East to work, and to bring about peace. Indeed, that is why the Prime Minister was not making the Statement in the other place today, and why he is in the Middle East.
Lord Grenfell: My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is important to see what lessons the member state governments of the European Union have learnt from the 50th enlargement? I am pleased to see that, among the many lessons that there should have been, they have certainly learned one in saying that,
“The Union will refrain from setting any target dates for accession until the negotiations are close to completion”.
Although we welcome Bulgaria and Romania coming in, it was not a terribly smart move to tell them that they would fail the exam in 2006 but were guaranteed to pass it in 2007. That is no way to give a country’s government incentives to make necessary reforms on time.
Would the Minister also agree that we need some assurance on whether one other lesson has been properly learnt? It is clearly great folly to bring into the European Union any state that has serious unresolved disputes with another non-member state. We do not want—the European Union should not want and should never allow—that kind of problem to be imported into the European Union. I hardly need mention what country that is. The lesson needs to be learnt because we must be extremely vigilant that in the case of Kosovo and Serbia that cannot happen again. Disputes need to be resolved before a country comes in. We made a mistake in the fifth enlargement in that one case.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I fully accept where the noble Lord is speaking from. On the point about refraining from setting target dates, it has been made clear why that has been done. That is a lesson learnt. I am not sure that one could be as bold as to say that all disputes have to be completely settled before you are in. Sometimes, getting countries in may be a way to solve the dispute to people's satisfaction, but there remains a veto for existing member states on new member states joining. In some ways, that is partly an incentive to get such disputes solved. Solving disputes by talk around the table in the European Union is by far a better way than doing it with tanks and guns.
- House adjourned at 6.36 pm.
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