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Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, we do not believe that the LSE costings are sound. It based its calculations on certain assumptions with which we cannot agree. That is one reason why we asked KPMG to consider how we had costed those issues, based on the evidence that we have at present. We found that KPMG agrees with us that our costings are sound. I could highlight a number of reasons why we do not agree with the LSE on the matter.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, when did the Government abandon the principle that significant sums of money should not be spent on legislation until it is approved by Parliament?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, we have not abandoned that. As the noble Lord well knows and as I have said from this Dispatch Box several times, we have to introduce biometric passports next year. That information must be collated for us to comply with the
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reasonable expectation of our citizens to travel to the United States and to Europe with the means that we anticipate will be necessary.
Lord Dholakia: My Lords, further to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, will the total cost of the ID card be met by individuals so that there will be no further charge on taxpayers?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, the charge I mentioned of £584 million is the charge that we anticipate will be necessary to ensure that those costs are covered.
Lord Stratford: My Lords, I personally believe that identity cards should be compulsory. Have the Government worked out a figure for how much it would cost if cards were compulsory and were issued free?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, we have not worked out a figure for if the cards were issued free. Noble Lords know that our current estimate is £93 for a passport with identity card and £30 for an identity card issued on its own—that identity card being capable of being used as a travel document and of use for a 10-year period.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, as there is a serious discrepancy in the figure over 10 years between—I am not much good with figures—£5.5 billion and £10 billion to £20 billion, ought that not to be further examined by the House in our debates in view of my noble friend's Question?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, we will have the delightful opportunity to discuss such issues at great length when the Bill comes before Committee. One of the discrepancies between the LSE figures and ours is that we calculate on a 10-year time limit and the LSE's figures are based on a five-year time limit. There are a number of other difficulties.
The Bill is to reach Committee in this House soon and I should tell your Lordships that on Monday 14, noble Lords will have an opportunity to attend a demonstration of the biometrics in Committee Room 4 between 12.15 and 1.15 pm. From the nature of this debate, I know that the room will probably be packed.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, we are in the 24th minute.
Incapacity Benefit
3 pm
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, in begging your Lordships' leave to ask this Question, I must apologise to the House—it should refer to "incapacity benefit" and not "invalidity benefit".
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To ask Her Majesty's Government how long new invalidity benefit claimants have to wait before receiving their benefit.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My Lords, latest figures show that the average time taken by Jobcentre Plus to clear a claim for incapacity benefit, from the receipt of the claim form to the referral for payment, is 15.2 days.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, the noble Lord must be delighted that I did not ask this Question in respect of jobseeker's allowance where the situation is rather different. Inevitably, there are hang-ups with incapacity benefit. Are they through the call centre system or are they through getting the necessary medical evidence?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, clearly there are a number of stages to the incapacity benefit claim process. There can be factors which lead to delays. But it is worth stating that our target is 19 days. So, on average, we are within that target, although there will be variations between different parts of the country. As regards the contact centre, the target for responding to calls is 90 per cent. The latest figures for September show that we reached 84 per cent.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, is the Minister aware that, as well as dissatisfaction with the difficulty of getting through on those telephone systems, one of the major problems is where people come in and go out of those benefits? Local authorities find that extremely difficult. Those who wish to go back to work find it a great disincentive that the housing benefit or other financial support that they need does not come through. There seems to be no way to keep continuity for people who do not have a continuous degree of disability or incapacity and who try to work when they can.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I understand the point that the noble Baroness has raised. I agree that for people coming off incapacity benefit and going into work, to whom we wish to give every encouragement, there should be linking arrangements so that in prescribed circumstances, if employment does not work out, they can go back on to various benefits. I agree that that should be as smooth as possible. If someone has been on incapacity benefit for any length of time, he or she may be nervous about going back into work. So we need to give them reassurance. We are looking at that in the reform to incapacity benefit, which we will announce in due course.
Lord Addington: My Lords, does the Minister agree that one of the major problems in previous attempts to reform incapacity benefit levels take-up was the amount of advice that was available to steer people through the system? Will the Minister assure us that
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the Government are looking at the ongoing process of giving the right advice to people to make sure that they are capable of being retrained for work that is available in their community?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I very much agree with the noble Lord. We know that many people—between 80 and 90 per cent—who are on incapacity benefit wish to go back to work. We also know that within the current system there can be disincentives and, perhaps, not as much advice, support and help as is possible. That is the purpose of the reform proposals which we will announce in due course. The Pathways to Work pilots, which have worked very successfully, have shown that skilled advisers to assist, help and encourage people back into work can have an enormously positive effect.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, can the noble Lord explain to the people suffering from CFS/ME how they will be expected to go back to work—many of them want to go back to work—when it is unlikely that any employer will take them on? They will be able to work perhaps for a day or half a day and then have to say, "I'm very sorry, I can't do any more today". How will that work?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I fully appreciate that some people, particularly those with more severe conditions, may never be able to work. But the outcome for people who stay on incapacity benefit is such that for many it is much better for them and society that they go back to work. It is very difficult to talk about a specific condition because individuals vary. But part of the work of welfare reform is working with employers to give them every encouragement to take people into work and off incapacity benefit. The outcome of the pathway to work pilots has shown that employers will work in partnership with Jobcentre Plus. Given encouragement, support and back-up facilities, they are prepared to help. We should welcome that.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, at the risk of boring your Lordships, following on from the question put by the noble Countess, surely to goodness employers should be encouraged to take up the modern system of job sharing. Would that not be of great help to the group of people the noble Countess is talking about?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, the noble Lord could never bore the House. Of course he is absolutely right: there are many forms of flexible working which might fit the bill. However, the main point to make here is that we have had enormous success in increasing the number of people of working age in work and we need to carry on doing that. Those who remain on incapacity benefit for longer than two years are more likely to retire or die than to go back into work. We know from the Pathways to Work pilots that with the right encouragement and support many people can go back into work—and many have done so. Moreover, the attitude of employers is absolutely
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critical. Instead of being negative about this, we should applaud the way in which employers have responded to the challenge.
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