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Lord Snape: Can the Minister envisage a situation, particularly in the other place, when there are rumours in the newspapers about the closure of a particular railway line and an honourable Member from either side of that House asks the Secretary of State to confirm or deny those rumours? Presumably the Secretary of State would say, "I don't know anything about that—this is a matter for the ORR". I suggest to my noble friend that in the real world that would cause some degree of controversy, and if he was the Minister who had to do it I would not envy him.
Lord Davies of Oldham: I am seeking to get myself into the same world of reality that my noble friend inhabits. Ministers are not infrequently challenged at the Dispatch Box about decisions which are made by others. A Minister gives the most cogent and accurate reply possible, which is invariably the case with Ministers in the present Administration, as my noble friend will recognise. However, that does not mean to say that because Ministers have to answer at the Dispatch Box on a whole range of issues, it is not the proper responsibility of others to take the decisions. We expect that the vast majority of those decisions will be taken in good faith according to the legislative provision and will be accepted in good faith. When they are not, of course my noble friend is right, the balloon goes up in the other place. However, we are all accustomed to that. No one is suggesting that because Secretaries of State can be challenged on everything within their purview all legislation should be constructed on the basis that the Secretary of State does everything.
Lord Bradshaw: Will the Minister confirm whose name is on a notice of closure? Is it the ORR or the Secretary of State?
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Lord Davies of Oldham: Yes, it will be the Office of Rail Regulation.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester: Following the point made by my noble friend Lord Snape, is the Minister aware of the passage in what I think was the second volume of the Crossland diaries in which the future of the Central Wales Line was discussed not by the Office of Rail Regulation or by officials in the department but in the Cabinet? The decision was taken by the Cabinet not to close that particular service—a very lightly used service which, happily, is still open today—because it was said at the time that it passed through seven marginal constituencies.
Lord Davies of Oldham: Not just in rail but across the board we can all identify areas where intelligent political decisions have been taken by Labour Ministers when faced with an obvious crisis which needed to be resolved by their direct action for the public good. However, that is very different from creating legislation which requires the Secretary of State to be responsible for every aspect of action with regard to the railways. Of course, he is ultimately responsible. My noble friend Lord Snape is absolutely right that an issue such as we are discussing would undoubtedly be raised by a Member of Parliament with an interest in the matter. If it was sufficiently significant, no doubt it would be considered at Cabinet level. We all know where ultimate responsibility lies. But are we really suggesting that all railway closures, even those which might bring financial benefit to the area concerned, will be decided at Cabinet level? Of course not.
Lord Snape: No, of course we are not suggesting that for a moment. However, I take my noble friend back to a discussion that we had what seems like years ago, but was actually earlier today. Under Clause 13 concerning the railway functions of passenger transport executives, the Secretary of State must either consult or give his approval on every one of the 10 or so subsections there as regards the franchising of railways. But suddenly, when the railways do not run any more, it is nothing to do with the Secretary of State. My noble friend cannot have it both ways. Either the Secretary of State is a genius who dabbles in all aspects of railway matters, including closures, or he leaves things alone and lets other people get on with them. No matter how eloquently, my noble friend is trying to have his cake and eat it.
Lord Berkeley: Earlier we discussed the question of the high-level output. It is my understanding that the Secretary of State's high-level output specifying the passenger services will include how many trains an hour stop at West Bromwich, Par or Tilehurst or wherever. So all the constituents of the 600-odd Members of Parliament will write to the Secretary of State. It is surprising that he will take on that
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responsibility in addition to the list that my noble friend Lord Snape read out, but he is not going to get involved in closures.
Lord Davies of Oldham: Such has been the sustained fire from this side of the Chamber, I had even lost track of whose amendment it was. I rise to my feet because, to the delight of the Committee, I would have been found in error—not, I hasten to add, on the broad thrust of the argument, on which I remain committed because of the beauty of this clause and its relationship to the rest of the Bill. I will not say that we will accept the amendment, but I was in error.
I nodded to the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw. I do not think that I gave a distinct answer, but if I nodded, I nodded incorrectly in the wrong direction. It should have been horizontal and not vertical. Although the Office of Rail Regulation has got a crucial independent role to play with regard to the process, the announcement—the closure notice—will be for the appropriate rail funding or national authority. That is the answer to the point about on whose part the final announcement is made.
Lord Rotherwick: I was under the impression that I had the very modest amendments and that my noble friend on my right had the modest ones. As the Minister has proven by the fact that he has come under sustained fire, has had to jump to his feet more than usual and all Members of the Committee have joined in, I have had great delight in moving this amendment.
I am grateful for the support that I have had from everyone bar the Minister, in particular what was said by the noble Lords, Lord Bradshaw and Lord Berkeley, and the very precise comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Snape. I understand that we are trying to ensure that where the Secretary of State has the enjoyment of holding the purse strings, he does not get off the hook from accountability for the actions carried out in his name, in effect, by the ORR. Therefore, like the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, we cannot possibly be satisfied with the answers and the way in which the Minister would wish this to go. We will no doubt come back to it at a later date.
Lord Snape: Before the noble Lord withdraws his amendment, perhaps I may put a question through him to my noble friend. In reply to the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, he said that the heading for a closure will be from the funding authority. Outside Scotland, the funding authority is the Secretary of State. If my noble friend is not going to answer any questions about a closure, why is his name on the closure in the first place?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My noble friend is having trouble with the subtlety of these arrangements. He should recognise the proper role of the Office of Rail Regulation in the closure procedures that these amendments would change, which I have sought to
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resist. At no stage have I suggested that the Secretary of State is not responsible, nor am I denying that he can be called to account even in areas in which he would not be directly responsible because of the pressures that could be engendered on him.
I rise to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, and the Committee, that once the Office of Rail Regulation has played its part with regard to the closure notice, it is the funding authority with regard to the railways system that is under consideration that announces the closure; that is, the Secretary of State, the passenger transport executive, Transport for London, the National Assembly for Wales or the Scottish Parliament. So it is not just the Secretary of State. But I think that my noble friend would also recognise that the Secretary of State has his role to play alongside those other authorities.
Lord Berkeley: Before the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, withdraws his amendment, I want to say that I am pleased with my noble friend's answer. The Rail Regulator will conduct the appraisal, which I am sure is right, and then the Secretary of State or the other funding authority will make the announcement. That is on a closure under this clause.
However, as regards a closure because the railways have run out of money, as we discussed earlier today under Amendment No. 32, my noble friend resisted the suggestion that after the regulator had conducted his appraisal the Secretary of State should make an
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announcement about the closure or a reduction in service. Perhaps he could see his way of putting the two closures into the same pot.
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