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Lord Snape: All Members of the Committee have heard of the artful dodger; in my opinion, this is another example of the artful drafter. Back in the 1980s, under a previous administration, the business of setting up regulators to run various industries really got under way. One great benefit, from Ministers' point of view, was that if they were asked any difficult questions in Parliament, their reply could be, "Not me guv; it is someone else's responsibility". This is an example of a fundamental problem for the future of the railway industry being shuffled off from ministerial responsibility to someone else.

I agree with both previous speakers that Secretaries of State must face their responsibilities for the future of the rail industry, especially concerning rail closures. Even if my noble friend were readily to concede to the persuasive blandishments of my noble friend Lord Berkeley, that would not in itself solve the problem because, as the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, said, there are various ways of closing the railway without going through the bother of the existing statutory procedures. Even if the amendment were accepted, or incorporated into the Bill later, we would not get away from the fact that it is possible to run down portions of the railway as the noble Lord described.

An example that comes readily to mind is that for years, the former BR board wanted to get rid of trains between Stockport and Stalybridge. Rather than go through the formal closure, it ran what was known as a parliamentary train once a week in one direction and then professed surprise that no one travelled on it. That is an artful way of getting rid of bits of the railway that you do not really want.

But at least under the present system, the Secretary of State can be cross-examined about those matters. Under the clause as drafted, the "Not me guv" clause, the Secretary of State will not be held responsible. He will say, "I am sorry. These decisions are not taken by me; they are taken by professionals". I could write the speech now. I could not possibly deliver it as well as my
 
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noble friend, but I could write it now. No doubt it is being drafted by those wise counsels who assist Ministers in such matters.

Having said that, I appreciate the dilemma faced by those running the rail industry at present, let alone under the Bill. For my sins, I used to chair a bus company. I remember that in the last year that I did that job, we withdrew a bus that went to Warwick University, in Coventry, at 8.30 in the morning where the average occupancy was five. The bus company felt that that double-decker bus would be better deployed somewhere else, rather than carrying five passengers to Warwick University. Picking up the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, even if there were an intensive service between Stoke and Stafford or along the Trent Valley, which is the other area on which the SRA recently pronounced, there would be a whole series of packed trains running up and down. I am sure that the noble Lord would agree with me.

So I have sympathy with the view being expressed that to use resources properly—noble Lords may feel that resources should be increased—it is sometimes necessary to redeploy them, especially during morning and evening peaks, to an area where they would be better used. That does not take us away from the fundamental point about the amendment and the clause, which is that, if my noble friend does not accede to the eminently reasonable calls from my noble friend Lord Berkeley and the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, we will store up a whole heap of problems in both Houses. Regardless of the contents of this Bill, I do not believe that noble Lords, or those characters down the corridor, can or will sit silently while stretches of the railway are run down in the way my noble friend outlined or while services are withdrawn.

I hope that the Minister will accept that this is a fundamental issue, look again at the wording of this clause and even go so far as to accept this amendment.

Lord Faulkner of Worcester: I, too support the amendment. The curious thing about the original clause is that while the Bill may be a little opaque, the Explanatory Notes are absolutely clear. Paragraph 220 states:

In other words, Ministers can say whatever they like, but the ORR has the final word over what bits of the railway will close if it believes the money is not there.

As my noble friend Lord Snape said, the Minister can therefore say, "I didn't want that to close"; or, "I felt that it should be, but those guys in the ORR have done the job for me". I therefore have great sympathy with the amendment and believe that these should be political decisions and that Ministers should be accountable.

On the Stockport/Stalybridge line, which I know quite well, it is such a collectors' item. Not only is it one train a day in one direction once a week, but in every
 
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timetable the direction of the train changes. Instead of going from Stockport to Stalybridge, it goes from Stalybridge to Stockport.

Viscount Astor: I have some sympathy with the Minister today; he is under a bit of pressure. As the noble Lord, Lord Snape, said, if he was in another place, he would be under more pressure because every Member of Parliament in the West Midlands would be jumping up and down complaining about closures. Mainly, they would be Members of another place from this side because, as we know, that will soon change.

The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, pointed out one of the most revealing aspects of the clause. It is that the Secretary of State will be saying to the ORR, "I want this", but he will not give it the money. The ORR will therefore be in the position of saying, "Thank you very much. We know what you want but we can't deliver it". A circular system of blame will therefore allow responsibility to be shuffled backwards and forwards between the two, each one saying, "Not me, guv, it's his fault".

That is where the Bill constantly falls down. It is not a question of independence of the Office of Rail Regulation; it is a question of jurisdiction. The jurisdiction is limited by lack of available resources. That is the fundamental issue and why Amendment No. 32 is so important. If we leave the Bill as it is, lines will be closed and everyone will blame each other, but at the end of the day we will all know that there is only one reason: the Treasury has cut the funding.

Lord Davies of Oldham: There is nothing I like more than sympathy from the Opposition Benches. It is a major reinforcement, particularly when the Opposition forecasts exactly what more than 400 Labour MPs will be saying after the forthcoming election. But there we are, we must bow to wisdom elsewhere.

I want to stay in order and address myself overwhelmingly to the amendment. There was a danger of the debate straying from the significance of the amendment. It is about a fundamental issue—the relationship between the Secretary of State and the Office of Rail Regulation—but subsequent contributions came down to the supreme importance of the Stockport and Stalybridge railway. I am considerably more ignorant on that issue than several of my noble friends, which is why I shall not vie with them on it.

4.15 p.m.

I want to concentrate first of all on the strategic issue because, after all, that is what the amendment is about. That is the nub of the real debate. Let us be absolutely clear about this situation. I find it difficult to accept the concept of dog-in-the-mangerish activity going on which is so obscure that no one will be aware of where responsibility lies. The chairman of the ORR is absolutely clear that this will be a transparent process.

The nature of a disagreement between the ORR and the Secretary of State will be quite clear. In any case, the issue to which the amendment is addressed is that fundamental position in which two attempts have been
 
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made by the ORR to say quite clearly, publicly and transparently, "We do not consider that the resources which are being made available are sufficient for us to meet the needs of the railway as envisaged by the Secretary of State". At that point action is taken. It is hard to think that there will be a difficulty regarding who is responsible in those circumstances. The discussion will be public. People will be able to make their observations on where responsibility lies. However, the principle to which we adhere is that it ought to be the ORR which makes these judgments.

The trouble with the amendment is that it would take the matter away from the independent body and transfer it to the Secretary of State. Is that what the industry wants? The industry considers that the independent economic regulator ought to arrive at the final determination of what can be delivered. It is that judgment it wants, not the judgment of the Secretary of State. That would not give the same level of assurances which those contributing to the railway want so that they can plan their businesses with a reasonable degree of assurance and protect the interests of providers of railway services in respect of the price and quality of facilities. They will have made their case to the independent ORR and will regard it as answerable.

We all recognise that from time to time both in this House and in another place there will be major debates about the future of the railways. The Secretary of State will be held to account. Inevitably, public spending round allocations to the Department for Transport, and that part which relates to the railways, are the subject of considerable discussion. However, we are discussing the judgment on whether the resources that are made available meet the needs of the railway to provide services, and whether that judgment ought to be the Secretary of State's or the ORR's. It seems to me obvious that the ORR is the independent voice. The endgame envisaged in my noble friend's amendment is that whereby on two occasions the ORR has made representations to the Secretary of State and told him that it is at crisis point and that he is not providing sufficient resources to meet the relevant objectives. Is anyone suggesting that, should that situation occur, the Secretary of State will not be held to account?

I am not quite sure why the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, referred to Members of the other place challenging closures, when we all recognise that we are making substantial progress with the railways against a background in recent years of very real difficulties. We have sought to improve the management of the railways through this Bill. But if we were at the crisis point envisaged by the amendment, does any Member of the Committee suggest that the Secretary of State would not be in the firing line or answerable in those terms? Of course he would.

We want to protect within the framework of the Bill that which has the confidence of the industry in terms of independent assessment and judgment on what is to be provided, against the demands of the Secretary of State. If that judgment reaches the crisis point that we are discussing, of course the Secretary of State would be responsible, as I am sure all Members of the
 
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Committee recognise. Therefore, I recognise the value of the debate. But I hope that my noble friend will recognise that the amendment would not add anything to the debate; in fact, it might even detract from it.

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