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Lord Waddington: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, will he say whether he will get me an answer to my question by twelve o'clock? How much time will be allotted in the House of Commons to consider amendments put to them by this place?
Lord Grocott: My Lords, I can give the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, an answer to his question now. He would be grossly affronted, I think, if the House of Commons issued rules and edicts about how long we in the House of Lords should spend debating Bills. He would never have done that while he was in the House of Commons. I certainly cannot give him an answer to that question now. It would be quite improper for me to do so.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, could the Government Chief Whip explain one thing? He suggested originally that we adjourn the House until 11.45 a.m. That caused so much steam that everyone discussed it, and now it is 11.45 a.m. I cannot see why we now have to adjourn until twelve
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o'clock. Presumably the point of adjourning until 11.45 a.m. was to allow the Government to get the facts straight so that we could proceed. Does the noble Lord really mean that the Government do not have the facts straight and that they therefore need another quarter of an hour?
Lord Grocott: No, my Lords; it simply means that I have been listening to the debate. I am just anxious to make everyone happy. Another quarter of an hour might do that. I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until noon.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
[The Sitting was suspended from 11.45 to noon.]
Prevention of Terrorism Bill
The Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs and Lord Chancellor (Lord Falconer of Thoroton): My Lords, I beg to move on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland of Asthal, that the House do now resolve itself into a Committee upon the Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into a Committee upon the Bill.—(Lord Falconer of Thoroton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the Chair.]
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara): Before calling Amendment No. 1, I should point out that if Amendment No. 1 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments Nos. 6 to 15 inclusive because of pre-emption.
The Earl of Onslow: Before the Minister moves Amendment No. 1, would it not be much better if she gave an undertaking not to insist on putting her amendment in the Bill at this stage, so that the amendments that would otherwise be excluded could be discussed properly and in the right place? Then, if the Committee proceeds along the lines of some form of agreement, her amendment could be moved on Report, and it in turn may have to be amended after the Government have listened to what Members of the Committee have had to say.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: First, neither I nor the Government want in any way to preclude discussion on those other amendments. Secondly, we make it clear that if the amendment in the name of my noble friend goes into the Bill it would not preclude any amendments being made to those amendments on Report or at Third Reading. We do not wish to curtail debate in any way. It seems to us convenient to put the amendment into the Bill so that there is at least clarity about what the Government propose and everything is
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in one document. I make it clear to the noble Earl that we seek neither to curtail debate nor to preclude any attempts to amend the Bill.
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: The Chairman of Committees has just said that if Amendment No. 1 is agreed, and the 16 lines are removed, all those amendments relating to Clause 1 as it stood previously would drop and could not be moved. It would not therefore be possible to debate them in this Committee. I accept that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor is not attempting to avoid debate on all those matters. However, could it not be agreed at least that the Minister should give notice that at the end of the debate on the amendment she will withdraw it, making it clear that she will bring it back at a later stage having heard the further arguments?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: That seems a perfectly reasonable suggestion, if it helps noble Lords. That means that I will not move the amendment formally but may bring it back at a later stage. In that way there would not be a problem of pre-emption.
Lord Goodhart: I am sorry to take a different view on this, but I think that the government amendment should go in at this stage. We are in a chaotic position, partly because we are at the same time considering amendments to the Government's new amendments and amendments to the Government's original version. We do not want that to happen again on Report. Although I entirely take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Carlisle, who has an important amendment to be debated, Amendment No. 10, that issue is raised by others that are not pre-empted and it can be raised again by a different amendment on Report. It is important that we have a coherent government Bill on Report. If the government amendments are withdrawn, we will not get that.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: As Members of the Committee can see, I have sympathy with both points of view. The group that we are starting with is quite big; it allows debate of the issues that the noble Earl quite legitimately wants to raise. I suggest that we get going and then see whether Members of the Committee feel that there has been a satisfactory debate about the issues that they want to raise. I understand that the noble Earl feels strongly about the matter; I was going to say that, unless noble Lords feel strongly about it, my inclination is just to start.
The Earl of Onslow: I understand completely the position of the Liberal Democrat Front Bench. They have tabled their amendments to a government amendment, and if it is not moved, their points cannot be raised. It just shows what a total foul-up the whole procedure has been. I have great sympathy with that. Would it not be possible to discuss the amendments to the government clauses and the government amendment and perhaps not move any of them? If there were some form of agreement, all the amendments could be tabled again on Report, when most of the work will have been
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done. That will still enable us to discuss some of the other issues. I quite understand the situation; Scylla and Charybdis have moved into this Chamber.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: I am really getting worried. The Government Chief Whip got to his feet at about half past eleven and said one of the most optimistic things that I have ever heard: that if the House were adjourned for a quarter of an hour we would achieve absolute clarity. The prospect of absolute clarity has since then receded considerably.
I do not want to make a long speech but I wish to refer to what has gone on over the past few years. We have been reminded again and again from government Benches that this House is inferior to, and subordinate to, the other place. Now, suddenly, we are being put in the driving seat and told to have no regard, or very little regard, for the other place. That seems a quite intolerable reversal of a fundamental position by the Government. It is an impertinence for them in these circumstances to ask us just to go ahead and see whether the muddle will not sort itself out. I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved, That the House do now resume.—(Lord Peyton of Yeovil.)
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I think that the Committee should debate the individual amendments. I do not think for one moment that either the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, or the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, want to prevent that. I do not think that the Committee would have any difficulty debating the issues raised both by the Government's amendments and those tabled by the noble Earl. We do that regularly, particularly when one amendment pre-empts a later one. We are perfectly capable of debating an amendment that might pre-empt another one because we are good at debating the issues. With respect, I suggest that we proceed and get on with debating the actual issues.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: Is the noble and learned Lord really suggesting that we would have no difficulty in discussing 29 government amendments, all of which are starred? I do not agree; we have absolute difficulty. That is why I have formally moved that this House do now resume.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, I have some sympathy with my noble friend, but I should quite like to get on with discussing the Bill and using the time available.
However, the Government are making it extremely difficult for us to do so. We were promised that there would be groupings—we have one set. The Government hold the ring. It is a matter for the Government, and I took grave exception to the comments made by the Chief Whip that when we were in government we behaved like this. We never had such a shambles. We used the guillotine, but we gave people a proper opportunity to discuss matters.
Serious issues are involved. The Chief Whip obviously has not grasped what is causing so much anger and concern not only on these Benches but also
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throughout both Houses. A sensible Government would get their act together and perhaps come back on Monday. I can see why my noble friend is moving the adjournment of the proceedings as it reflects our anger that we have been placed in such a position that we cannot do the job that we have been sent here to do.
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