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Lord Henley: My Lords, I did have that assurance from the noble Baroness at a previous stage. I appreciate that my drafting is not as felicitous as might have been managed by those who are in charge of such matters, but I hope that the noble Baroness can give me an assurance before I sit down that this will actually happen before the Bill leaves this House.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, indeed, I give the noble Lord that assurance. I am terribly sorry that it was not corrected before.
Lord Henley: My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 14 [Minor and consequential amendments]:
Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendments Nos. 176 to 178:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
[Amendment No. 179 not moved.]
14 Dec 2004 : Column 1317
Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 179A:
"PART 3
NORTHERN IRELAND
1 The Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002 is amended as follows.
2 In section 6, for the words from the beginning to "insert—" substitute "For section 12B of the Judicature (Northern Ireland) Act 1978 substitute—".
3 In Schedule 13 (repeals and revocations) insert in the appropriate place—
| Constitutional Reform Act 2002 | Sections (Removal from most senior judicial offices) to (Tribunals for considering removal)."" |
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Schedule 15 [Repeals and revocations]:
Baroness Ashton of Upholland moved Amendment No. 180:
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, as a result of changes made by other amendments, both in Committee and on Report, Amendments Nos. 180 to 185 add additional references or delete defunct references to Schedule 15—the tables of provisions that are repealed or revoked by the Bill. The amendments have already been spoken to. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland moved Amendments Nos. 181 to 185:
| "Courts and Legal Services Act 1990 (c. 41)" | Section 11(10). |
On Question, amendments agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 186 to 188 not moved.]
Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendments Nos. 189 to 191:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
[Amendment No. 192 not moved.]
14 Dec 2004 : Column 1318
Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 192A:
"( ) Part 3A extends to Northern Ireland only."
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Viscount Bledisloe moved Amendment No. 193:
"( ) No order shall be made to bring Part 2 into force unless the Lord Chancellor is satisfied that appropriate premises are available which are ready for use as the Supreme Court or will be so ready when that Part comes into effect.
( ) In this section—
"appropriate premises" means premises built to a design which the Lord Chancellor has, after consultation with the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary, approved as being appropriate for use as the Supreme Court;
"built" includes altered or renovated."
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, with great glee, your Lordships have now come finally to the sunrise clause. There are two versions of it. After some negotiation with the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, I am content to allow him to prefer his version. I think that both achieve the same result; namely, that there are two stages to the sunrise clause.
First, the Lord Chancellor—I thought that the noble and learned Lord was going to describe him as the "Lord Chancellor" and not as the "Minister" in his amendment—must decide whether to put forward plans which are, in his view, suitable for providing accommodation for the Supreme Court. He then has to consult the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary about those and, having done that, he may approve the plans. The plans are then implemented and, when the accommodation built in accordance with the plans is completed or nearly completed, he may then, and only then, bring the Supreme Court provision into effect. That seems to me to be a satisfactory form for the sunrise clause to take and, as I said, I am prepared to accept the noble and learned Lord's wording.
I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, is intending to move Amendment No. 193B. If he is, I must point out to him that I am not sure whether he has the timing right because the matter would come before the House only when the premises were fully built and virtually ready. It would seem a little late at that stage for the House to say that it did not like them.
Surely if the matter is to be considered by the House, it should be considered at the stage when the plans are approved rather than when the building is completed, when the House could say, "Well, it doesn't seem to us, contrary to what the Lord Chancellor says, that it is ready", or, "It doesn't seem to have been built in accordance with the plans and is a totally different building". I do not think that that is a very useful function for the House, although it might well be useful for the House to consider the matter at the planning stage, when it would be able to see more realistically what the building would cost.
14 Dec 2004 : Column 1319
However, having formally moved Amendment No. 193, I shall withdraw it in due course in expectation of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor moving Amendment No. 193A. I beg to move.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, at this hour the words that spring to my mind are those of William Shakespeare in an early scene in Hamlet:
An appropriate conclusion to our deliberations today is to say a most profound "Thank you" to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for the amendment that he is about to move and which has already been accepted by the mover of Amendment No. 193. It is a most welcome development, albeit to some extent a constitutional innovation, that the bricks and mortar should precede the creation of the new institution. Certainly that would not have gone down well in Scottish devolutionary terms.
Lord Kingsland: My Lords, I thought I would add my own Shakespearean contribution to your Lordships' deliberations, adapting the first lines of Hamlet's great soliloquy by saying, "To build or not to build, that is the question" that lies before your Lordships tonight. It is wholly relevant to the sunrise clause, which is before us in this group of amendments. I am perfectly content with the version proposed by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor and my contentment is reinforced by the support from the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe.
I am most grateful to the noble Viscount for his advice on our drafting. I shall certainly take it into account when the matter re-emerges a few days hence at Third Reading. The reason why Amendment No. 193B has been tabled is to cater for a set of circumstances in which the preferred option of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor does not transpire to be a runner; and that, after careful reflection, the noble and learned Lord, or one of his successors, decides to promote another building, or indeed to build a new building, whose costs are out of all proportion to those envisaged with the current preferred option. In those circumstances, I should have thought it wholly appropriate for Parliament to look again at the matter through a delegated legislative procedure, along the lines suggested by Amendment No. 193B.
I agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, that the earlier that Parliament has a chance to consider this matter the better. It may be that the planning stage, rather than the order stage, is the more appropriate moment at which to re-engage Parliament's responsibilities.
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