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Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, many want to return to visit the ancestral sites where their predecessors lie buried. That has been one of the very sad issues under discussion, because arrangements were made for them to make such a visit which, alas, fell through. My honourable friend Mr Rammell, when he saw representatives of the Chagossians in London on 16 November, said that if they wanted to visit the islands he would arrange for them to do so.
However, if the people wanted to return to live on the islands, they would find that there was nothing there. There is nothing left of the copra plantation. There is no infrastructure left, no clean water, electricity or any real sanitation. The idea that it would be easy to repopulate the islands, although it may be a great dream to some individuals, is actually quite unrealistic.
Earl Attlee: My Lords, what quality of life do the Chagossians enjoy in Mauritius?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I understand that they have enjoyed the same standard of living as those of Mauritian nationality from the beginning. We must remember that when these people left the Chagos Islands there were about 1,300 of them. Through the natural course of events there are now 5,000. Many of those people have been born and bred in the countries where they have subsequently taken up residence and where they enjoy the rights of citizens of those countries.
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Driving without Insurance
Lord Janner of Braunstone asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they will introduce legislation to give the police extended powers to deal with current levels of vehicle insurance evasion, including authority to impound uninsured vehicles.
The Minister of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (Lord Rooker): My Lords, we are determined to tackle the levels of uninsured driving. We have included in the Serious Organised Crime and Police Bill currently before Parliament in the other place a provision giving the police a specific power to seize a vehicle being driven by someone who is uninsured.
Lord Janner of Braunstone: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer, but does he know of the case of the 12 year-old girl who was knocked down just two weeks ago? It was thought that she would die or suffer brain damage. Her name is Jody Duffin. I am happy to say that she recovered. The driver responsible was fined a maximum of £70. Is that not totally derisory for that sort of albeit very common offence? Surely, the current sentences and sentencing guidelines for magistrates must now be revised to impose a minimum fine in excess of the nominal fixed penalty? Drivers who put others at risk through driving while uninsured should themselves risk suffering a major deterrent penalty.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I do not know the particulars of the case mentioned by my noble friend and I am not sure about the penalty. However, driving a motor vehicle while uninsured against third-party risks has been a fixed penalty offence since June 2003. Apparent offenders are offered a £200 fixed penalty or prosecution in court with a maximum fine of £5,000 and the possibility of disqualification if the case went that far. There are too many uninsured drivers around—an estimated 1.2 million—and it costs about £30 a year on everyone's motor insurance to fund the consequences.
Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, as well as uninsured drivers, there are also people who do not pay their vehicle excise duty. In examining the powers of the police, will the Minister consider whether a police constable who stops somebody who is obviously unlicensed or known to the police to be uninsured could immediately take the keys from the person concerned and arrange for the car to be impounded—and crushed within seven days if the money is not forthcoming?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, as I mentioned in my original Answer, the power is being included in the Bill that will come before your Lordships' House in due course because the only action that the police can take if they find an uninsured driver at the moment is to
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issue a fixed penalty. They cannot impound the vehicle. Some police forces have a private arrangement with drivers to impound the vehicle, but it is nothing more than a private arrangement. However, new technology is always on the way and there is the possibility of the motor insurance database being coupled with automatic numberplate recognition systems. In the end, this problem will be a thing of the past because it will be possible to match up the two databases with an enforcement authority to stop drivers before they can get on the road uninsured and with no road fund licence.
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, what is the average cost of securing third party motor insurance? That might put into context the £200 fixed penalty which he mentioned. I should imagine that it would cost very much more than £200 for most drivers to secure third party insurance. Is there not an incentive for those who do not respect the law to risk the £200 fine rather than splashing out rather more on a legal obligation to secure third party insurance?
Lord Rooker: Yes, my Lords. However, as we are not dealing with average people here, average figures are misleading. For example, drivers who are found to be uninsured are five times more likely to suffer crash injuries, 10 times more likely to have been convicted of drink driving, six times more likely to have been convicted of driving an unsafe vehicle, and three times more likely to have been convicted of driving without due care and attention. The kind of people who are driving uninsured are the riff-raff and crooks of society who do not give a tinker's cuss about the consequences.
Averages have been mentioned, but they would be misleading because they would be age related and gender related. I have no idea what the cost is. But these days, many long-term motorists with a good record can get comprehensive insurance from many companies for not much more than that fixed penalty. There is an issue here, and we are dealing with a lot of people. As I said, it is estimated that one in 20 drivers on the road is uninsured.
Lord Berkeley: My Lords, would it not help in detecting those who are uninsured if cars were required to display an insurance disc next to the road fund disc?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, that commonsense question was asked during briefings. It would not work like that because it is the driver who is insured, not the car. I found out after the briefings that people in Ireland apparently have to show proof of insurance in their car window. As I say, the technology is on the way to allow the matching of the insurance database against vehicles before they even get on the road. So I am not sure that introducing a half-term, paper-based system would solve the problem that my noble friend raises.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, on the subject of riff-raff and crooks, as the Minister put it, is he not
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concerned that these irresponsible drivers who drive without insurance and drive badly are increasingly being allowed to do so on our motorways almost with impunity because of the over-reliance on speed cameras, which has resulted in fewer police patrols on the motorways which are actually able to deal with dangerous driving as it occurs on the motorways? Should we not be rather concerned that this over-reliance on speed cameras has led to incorrect policing of our major roadways?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I do not have the details to go down that road. The speed cameras are different. However, the automatic number-plate recognition cameras could be tied in with the database from the motor insurance industry that has been put together more recently and identifies cars known not to be insured. Camera technology could be extremely helpful in this case. Those in charge of the technology could manipulate the traffic lights ahead of the car to stop it so that the driver could be apprehended. I understand that that already happens.
Earl Attlee: My Lords, at what point will the DVLA know the insurance status of every vehicle not subject to SORN?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I do not know the direct answer. Going back to the original Question, the police powers to deal with uninsured drivers are inadequate. The DVLA comes into this issue in a different way. The police already have access to the motor insurance database. The Question is about insurance, not road fund licence offences. The answer to the problem is to marry the two together, because the same people are likely to be seeking to evade their responsibilities in both directions.
Viscount Simon: My Lords, will my noble friend go a bit further from the question on average costs voiced by the noble Viscount, Lord Goschen? Does my noble friend agree that specific costs for a specific vehicle and specific driver in a specific area can easily be obtained and that that should be the minimum fine imposed by magistrates, with no allowance for ability to pay?
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