| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Lord Patten: My Lords, as the noble Baroness has been kind enough to refer to my speech, perhaps she could deal with another point that I raised. With due respect to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, he is one of the two Cabinet Ministers in your Lordships' House and in many ways this is his day—a debate on constitutional and legal matters. However, he has not been in the Chamber a great deal to listen to what have been some absolutely fascinating speeches made by noble Lords from all sides of the House. Why is that?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, my noble and learned friend has many duties and responsibilities, as the noble Lord will recognise. On dealing with this very important debate, I had hoped that my presence would suffice your Lordships. It has been a great privilege to address the House this evening. If that does not suffice—I think that it does—perhaps the noble Lord would like to take that up with my noble and learned friend.
I turn to judicial pensions per se. As judges' pensions are set out in statute, there are very clear reasons why the Bill is needed. It is not about trying to do anything other than recognise what other employers are able to do in other situations. As judges are covered by statute we are unable to deal with the matter in any other way. I again look forward to further debates on that issue.
Turning to the management of offenders Bill, the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, more or less said what I would have said, which was that if we manage offenders better we will reduce recidivism. If we are able to support people, we could prevent them committing further offences.
I accept what the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, said on the importance of training. My noble friend Lady Scotland will write to him on those issues as they are very important. I did not receive advance notice of his questions on 18 to 20 year-olds, but I am not at all surprised that he raised them. We debated such issues under the Children Bill. I know that the noble Earl feels very strongly about them: again, it is back to joining up, better provision and giving of the best to those with whom we can work most. I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiments there. We hope that the development of the end-to-end offender management, with a single person responsible for the management of each individual offender, will result in better management and will give continuity of support and care so that that group will benefit. I hope that we shall hear more from the noble Earl on those issues as the Bill is debated.
Devolution was discussed by a number of noble Lords—the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, the noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie, who I was sorry to hear was abolished again, and, of course, my noble friend Lord Sewel. Many issues were raised concerning the Welsh Assembly and the Richard review. It will not surprise noble Lords that I shall not go into those this evening.
29 Nov 2004 : Column 368
The Assembly has written to the Secretary of State, considering what happens after the Richard report. Meanwhile, we continue to work within the settlement.
My noble friend Lord Sewel spoke about the Sewel Motions. Since devolution there have been 55 Sewel Motions, many of them on important but marginal issues of UK Bills, ensuring that the legal systems work across borders, which is very important. I shall reflect on what my noble friend has said and I am sure that in future we shall be able to discuss those issues in greater detail.
The draft youth justice Bill is an important part of the legislative programme. I was grateful for the support from the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. It is important to get a sturdier and simplified structure of sentences which will give robust alternatives to a custodial sentence and focus on the prevention of offending.
I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, who I know feels very passionately about these issues, that providing the new sentence with the intensive supervision and surveillance order is meant to be a tough and effective alternative to custody. That means that we can limit custody to cases where these remedies have been tried or where they are inappropriate for exceptional reasons.
I think that will move closer to where the noble Baroness wishes us to be. I also share her distress at the death of Joseph, Adam and Gareth. As I said earlier to the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, I anticipate that the Department for Education and Skills and the Home Office will work very closely together to address some of the issues raised, particularly as a result of the death of Joseph Scholes. Officials have indicated to me that this dialogue is ongoing. I am more than happy to intermediate if necessary.
The Serious Organised Crime and Police Bill is an important piece of legislation. I am very grateful to my noble friend Lady Prosser and the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, for their welcome for the Bill and also for the support of my noble friend Lord Ahmed in his powerful speech.
The right reverend Prelate gave a general welcome to Part 4 of the Bill—the issues of incitement to religious hatred. I agree that we need a high threshold. The threshold must be appropriate. I also agree that this new offence will not and must not interfere with the vigorous public debate on religious beliefs that one would expect to see.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, made an important contribution. The Government are confident about this provision, but I am sure that the noble and learned Lord will add greatly to our deliberations.
The noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, was unsure about community support officers. I believe that they are an important additional resource. They are very welcome in our communities. I accept that we need to have scrutiny about the additional resources, powers
29 Nov 2004 : Column 369
and work they will be doing, but I recognise their value. I agree with my noble friend Lady Henig that they are an important part of the police family.
I can confirm to my noble friend Lady Warwick of Undercliffe that the clauses to tackle the animal rights extremists will come in two months after Royal Assent. I note the support given to her remarks by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern.
I hope that the fears of the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, are unfounded and that we can prove that to him—not least that this is not some eastern bloc-style operation. I hope that in a sense the contribution of my noble friend Lady Henig will have addressed his fears. I am very pleased that we are working closely with the police, both locally and nationally, as we develop SOCA, as it has become known.
The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, and the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, were concerned about identity cards. They were concerned about the remit of cards, their effectiveness, the systems, the cost and the civil liberties issues. I accept that we need to be clear about what we will and will not do. As my noble friend Lady Henig said, the balance will be important. However, I believe that this measure is about strengthening and not weakening civil liberties.
I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, feels that there will be some opposition from his Benches on this issue, but I welcome the debate. I recognise as relevant what the noble Earl, Lord Northesk, said about a technological background creeping in that is hardware, software and hidden wiring. He gave a very important speech linking the ID cards to broader constitutional issues. I think that an important part of our debates will be on the issues raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, and the issue of civil liberties in particular.
I turn to the drugs Bill. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, will agree with what is in the Bill about treatment for those with drug addiction. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, that aggravating factors such as using children are very important.
The consultation process for the draft counter-terrorism proposals is under way. The issues that were raised by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, may or may not arise. The noble Lord said that our job is to be "alert and not alarmed"—a slogan, but an important one—making sure that people can carry out their daily business.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, and the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, were concerned about these measures. Consultation is very important. I hope that as we deliberate on these issues we shall look at some of the matters that have been raised, not least what the noble and learned Lord said about telephone surveillance—a matter which I have picked up.
The charities Bill is not just about private schools, although that is what gets mentioned. A lot of work is under way concerning how private schools have worked constructively with state schools to support and provide resources for students which, I think, is a
29 Nov 2004 : Column 370
good model for what charitable institutions can do. I can tell my noble friend Lady Warwick that there will be minimum bureaucracy for universities; the arrangements will be introduced with that aim in mind; and we assure her that the charities Bill affects universities by changing the arrangements for their regulation, but nothing threatens the charitable status of universities.
The noble Lord, Lord Laird, raised—I knew that he would—the important issue of waterways. Having listened to him, it would be much better addressed in separate correspondence, and I shall write to him.
The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, talked a lot about dialogue in Northern Ireland. I agree. The noble Lord will be aware of the intensive dialogue that is under way and noble Lords will understand why I shall not comment further. However, I listened with great care and I know that the noble Lord is in touch with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland about his ideas.
In closing, let me pick up a few of the other points that have been raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy of Lour, asked: do we learn lessons from what we do? Yes, and we learn them from our predecessor governments too. Is it important that we review what we do? I could not agree more with the noble Baroness; yes, it is. Do I agree with her list of mistakes? No, I do not. Some people's mistakes are other people's move into a new and better world. I accept what the noble Baroness says, but it is important that the Government are able to be frank and open and benefit from all that has gone before.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, asked about the review of the laws on murder. As the noble and learned Lord knows, the Law Commission has already done significant work. The review will be led by the Home Office with strong support from the two other criminal justice departments: that is, the Department for Constitutional Affairs and the legal secretary at the Law Offices. How it is to be set up is yet to be finalised, but we expect it to follow the lines of the highly successful sexual offences review. I hope that that answers the noble and learned Lord.
The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, posed an interesting set of questions about elections, turnout, funding and so on. I think that he was hinting at when he thought that the election would be. Of course, I have no idea about that. Those are interesting debates in themselves that we need to pick up. Perhaps the noble Lord will table an Unstarred Question or a Motion for a Wednesday debate, so that we can have an interesting and lengthy debate on the matter.
Turning to the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, we continue to have a clear policy of decentralising and improving the performance of local government and strengthening the regions. As for the penalty notices from Defra, our experience is that people are eager to engage at local level—parish and neighbourhood—on issues that affect their daily lives. We want to harness that enthusiasm.
29 Nov 2004 : Column 371
Finally, I turn to my noble friend Lady Kennedy. I listen with great care to my noble friend's concerns; it is our job to address such concerns. We are a Labour Government, and I believe that my noble friend and my noble friend Lord Gould, whom she singled out, have made important contributions to that Government. I make no apology for seeking re-election; I want to ensure that we do more with tax credits, Sure Start, school funding, NHS Direct, the minimum wage and civil partnership. I am very proud of a raft of measures that the Government have introduced, and I believe that my noble friend is too.
Do I believe that those measures sacrifice our principles? I do not. I believe that as a party and as a Government we to need persuade my noble friend that those are the right measures and I will work closely with her to do so. Do I recognise the importance of common law within that principle, as the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, and my noble friend asked? Yes, I do.
29 Nov 2004 : Column 372
The details must prove the case and it is important that we engage every one of your Lordships involved with those issues in doing so.
So we believe that these proposals build on a foundation already made. I echo the hope of my noble friend Lady Scotland that the House will join us to enact them and build the trust and confidence of individuals, communities and society in a better future.
| Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |