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Lord Tanlaw: My Lords, the Minister made no mention of the contribution that renewables could make to the situation. Is that because the Ministry of Defence is continuing to oppose planning permission for the erection of wind turbines in south-west Scotland and in other areas which are very suitable for wind turbines? Can the Minister say whether any consideration has been given to when the blocking of such planning permission will be withdrawn?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, obviously in the long term we are looking to renewables to make a major contribution but that subject is not relevant to the Question, which concerns what will happen this year. Whatever happens in relation to renewables, it will not affect the situation to any great extent.
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, looking to the longer term, given the decline in United Kingdom supplies, to which the noble Lord referred, and the uncertainty of some overseas sources of supply, is it not now time to investigate further and more carefully the prospect of making gas from coal, given that at present unused and extensive supplies of coal are lying idle?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, clearly we are going to become a net importer of gas and, as I explained, the market participants are putting in place strategies to import gas. It will come in via a number of different supply routes and from diverse sources around the world, and that should enable us to have a stable supply of gas. So far as concerns gas from coal, we are continually looking at the different technological options available.
Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, following on from the question from my noble friend, as about 30 per cent of Europe's gas supplies come from Ukraine and given the current threat of civil disturbance there, which I believe underlines the fragile nature of those sources of supply—a matter about which we spoke
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continually during our debates on the Energy Bill—can the Minister tell the House in a little more detail than he gave in his previous answer what the Government will now do to reduce this dependence on overseas supplies and certainly those from potentially unstable countries?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, as I hope I explained in response to the previous question, we are already taking action, and have been doing so over a number of years, to make certain that our supplies come from a range of different parts of the world and by different routes. That means that we are already strongly diversifying the supply which comes into this country.
Lord Elton: My Lords, in seeking to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, in his substantive reply the noble Lord said that one thing that we would use would be demand regulation. Does that mean telling some people that they cannot have it when they want it, and is that not what the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, is concerned about?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: No, my Lords, I did not say "demand regulation"; I said "demand management". Obviously if the price of particular fuels increases, the participants in the market will switch demand to other areas. In a situation described by Ofgem as a "Siberia-style winter"—that is, one winter in 50—we would see prices in some areas go up and that would lead to some shift in demand between different sources of supply. That seems to me to be a perfectly sensible situation in such extreme conditions.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, is it not likely that, as the price of fossil fuel increases, heat pumps will come into their own in a country like Britain which has a moderately high temperature in the winter?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, there are always plenty of different options for dealing with the situation. I was trying to reassure the noble Lord that we would not have to deal with heat pumps this winter because there will be other perfectly good supplies of energy.
Bovine Tuberculosis
The Countess of Mar asked Her Majesty's Government:
How many cattle have been found to have tuberculosis lesions at the time of slaughter in abattoirs between March and September 2004.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Whitty): My Lords, we aim to confirm bovine TB on a herd basis through identification of visible lesions at post-mortem examination and/or laboratory culture of Mycobacterium bovis. The number of
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individual cattle with visible lesions at slaughter is therefore not available. Provisional data run from the State Veterinary Service database show that there were 857 new confirmed TB herd incidents between 1 March and 30 September 2004.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Does he agree that it is ridiculous that taxpayers should pay millions of pounds for cattle to be slaughtered when TB is obviously not being controlled? Is it not time that Her Majesty's Government grasped the nettle and allowed farmers to cull—not eradicate—badgers so that healthy badgers can live in healthy setts rather than distribute the TB bacterium? I understand that badgers excrete the bacterium with their urine and faeces and that one millilitre of infected urine is enough to kill a cow.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, the noble Countess and the House will be aware that badger culling trials are still continuing. While the pressure on farmers is recognised, it is by no means established that a culling strategy will control the spread of TB. Indeed, much of the spread of TB is clearly due to cattle movements rather than to movements of badgers. The trials are due to end in 2006. In the mean time, it would be irresponsible to lift the restrictions on badger culling as that would distort the outcome of those trials.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, is the Minister aware how ridiculous he and everyone else sound when such trials go on and on? Surely, a conclusion must have been reached by now. Arising out of the Question posed by my noble friend—she is my noble friend wherever she sits—has the Ministry put the herd disposition into counties? Is there a preponderance of herd infection in the south-west that would tally with the badger preponderance in that area as well?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, the noble Baroness is correct. The preponderance of TB cases has occurred in the south-west and to a limited extent in south Wales. It is also true that the spread of TB has been much wider than that. It has moved distances that mean that it is unlikely to have been conveyed by the badger population. While we await the results of the trials on the various forms of badger culling, it is also true that much of the spread has been due to causes other than badgers. As a result of the trials, which will end in 2006, we shall need to work out how best to control the badger population.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, will the Minister tell the House whether he has had meetings in the past 12 months with the British Veterinary Association and the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons about their views on TB and badgers and the connection with bovine TB in cattle? He has made an assertion about cattle movements. Does he have any factual, objective information, comparing the British Veterinary Association information with figures for cattle movements?
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Lord Whitty: My Lords, I have not discussed the matter with the British Veterinary Association, but my colleague, Ben Bradshaw, who deals with such matters, has, as had his predecessor, Elliot Morley. Clearly, there is a potential transmission—an actual transmission—from badgers to the cattle population. No one denies that. The issue is how far that has caused the spread of TB and, if one culled the badgers in one way or another, whether one would be able to prevent the spread and not simply allow more unhealthy badgers to move into the area.
Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, can the Minister explain the ethical distinction between slaughtering cattle that suffer from or have been exposed to tuberculosis and slaughtering badgers that suffer from or have been exposed to tuberculosis? The Government appear to be remarkably complacent about the first situation but very wary about becoming involved in the second.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, it is not a matter of ethical distinction, but what is most effective. Clearly, if a herd has been infected by TB, it is necessary, in effect, to cull that herd. If a farmer sees a badger, he has no way of distinguishing whether that badger is suffering from TB or not. At the moment, subject to the outcome of the tests, badgers are a protected species as is the case with other wildlife. The issue is not the ethics or the classification, but the effectiveness of the control.
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