Lords Hansard text for 7 Nov 200607 Nov 2006 (pt 0002)

Children in Care

2.59 pm

Baroness Walmsley asked Her Majesty’s Government:

What plans they have to address the issues relating to children in care raised by Ofsted and the Commission for Social Care Inspection in their report on the second round of annual performance assessments which was published on 1 November.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education and Skills (Lord Adonis): My Lords, we set out for consultation wide-ranging proposals for transforming the lives of children and young people in care in the Green Paper Care Matters, which we published on 9 October. The proposals directly address the concerns raised by Ofsted and CSCI about the educational attainment of children in care. The Government’s reforms aim to improve services for all children, and this vulnerable group must not be left behind.

Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, the proposals in the Green Paper are very welcome, but the Minister will know that the quality of the service given to looked-after children by authorities across the country varies considerably. I have two questions. First, what are the Government doing to find out what factors make one local authority so much better than another? Secondly, what are they doing to share best practice, to bring the worst of them up to the standard of the best of them and the whole lot up to another level?

Lord Adonis: My Lords, one particular concern has been the recruitment of foster carers, which, as the noble Baroness knows, goes to the heart of the provision made available for children in care. Earlier this year, we introduced national minimum allowances for foster carers, which now apply irrespective of local authority area. That has helped to spread more widely the best practice of those authorities that paid higher minimum allowances. There are a whole set of proposals in the consultation paper for spreading equivalent best practice, including having different tiers for the recruitment of foster carers and paying salaries to foster carers of children in the most difficult conditions. We look to directors of children’s services to continue to collaborate closely and we facilitate that collaboration so that best practice is spread widely.

Baroness Massey of Darwen: My Lords, the Green Paper is very welcome, but how will young people be consulted about it, in particular in responding to the consultation form in the report? Secondly, how will the children’s care councils that are proposed work at a local level?

Lord Adonis: My Lords, we have published a separate version of the Green Paper for young people and will take full steps to involve them in the consultation process. For example, we will hold a series of regional and national consultation events aimed at engaging young people, in partnership with organisations such

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as What Makes the Difference? and the Children’s Society, as well as with the Children’s Rights Director for England, Roger Morgan, who has an established reputation in this area.

The Lord Bishop of Worcester: My Lords, will the Minister assure the House that there is collaboration with the Home Office and the youth justice boards in view of the very high proportion of young people in prison who have had the experience of being in care at an earlier stage in their life?

Lord Adonis: My Lords, I can give the right reverend Prelate that assurance. If he has looked at the consultation paper, he will know that a whole section of it is devoted to the interests of children who are in custody. I draw his attention to pages 81 and 82, which set out a series of measures to improve provision for children in care who find themselves in custody, in particular the arrangements that are made in respect of them when they leave custody, which has been a particular weakness of the regime until now.

The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, given that 49 per cent of local authorities rate retention of child and family social workers as difficult or very difficult, given that 5 per cent of looked-after children in care last year were not even assigned a social worker—which is up from 2.7 per cent two years ago—and given the concerns of children in care about the turnover of their social workers, will the Minister ensure that the concerns about the development of the social care workforce are very clearly recognised in the Comprehensive Spending Review? When is the welcome proposal for a newly qualified social worker status likely to be implemented?

Lord Adonis: My Lords, I can give the noble Earl the assurance that he seeks. We believe that there are strong arguments for the newly qualified social worker status, which, as he says, the Government have put forward as an option for further consideration. It would mirror the equivalent status available in the teaching profession. It comes with a substantial price tag attached, which will feature in our consideration of our priorities in the Comprehensive Spending Review, but he has my assurance that we are taking the proposal very seriously.

Baroness Morris of Bolton: My Lords, as the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, has said, the report rightly criticises the number of children in care without a named social worker. Part of the problem of ensuring that every child in care has a named social worker is the shortage of specially trained social workers. Does the Minister agree that this is an area where volunteers could work alongside professionals—that is, if they are not put off volunteering to work with children in the first place?

Lord Adonis: My Lords, I agree, of course.

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Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, with regard to improving the educational performance of children in care, what measures have been taken to make sure that they have good access to computers and the internet?

Lord Adonis: My Lords, the first priority is to see that they have access to good schools, on which there are a whole set of proposals in the consultation paper. The particular issue of access to the internet will depend on the care setting and the provision made within it. We would expect, for example, foster carers to be able to provide such access—the revised and increased allowances that are made available to them will make it easier to do so, if they have not been doing so already. If there are other specific measures about which I can inform the noble Baroness, I will do so in writing.

Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is somewhat disappointing that the number of days at school missed by looked-after children has remained static? What extra steps will the Government advise to increase the number of days that they attend school?

Lord Adonis: My Lords, engaging young people in care more fully with their education by having schools that take their interests seriously is the key objective to be secured if we are going to see those young people turn up at school more. That is why the stability of placements is important and why it is vital that young people who move between care placements have the opportunity, if the distances allow, to remain in the school that they were in previously. The consultation paper proposes that there should be free transport for them so that they can do that. It is also why we have introduced the new powers, which the House agreed to through the Education and Inspections Bill, to allow children in care not only priority admission to schools at the beginning of the school year, but similar priority during the course of the school year, so that one of the biggest problems faced by children in care—not having a school place for periods while their care placement moves—is overcome. I hope that all those measures will help to meet the concerns that the noble Baroness rightly highlighted.

Business

3.07 pm

Lord Grocott: My Lords, with the leave of the House, a Statement on the Rural Payments Agency will be repeated later today by my noble friend Lord Rooker. With permission, we will take the Statement immediately after consideration of the Road Safety Bill.

Police and Justice Bill

A message was brought from the Commons, That they agree to certain of the amendments made by your Lordships to the Police and Justice Bill without amendment; they insist on their disagreement to certain other amendments, and they have made amendments in lieu to which they desire the agreement of your Lordships.

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The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal): My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons message be considered forthwith.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

commons amendments

[The page and line references are to HL Bill 104 as first printed for the Lords.]

36: After Clause 46, insert the following new Clause-

“Designation of Part 2 territories: omission of United States of America

In the list of territories in paragraph 3(2) of the Extradition Act 2003 (Designation of Part 2 Territories) Order 2003 (S.I. 2003/3334) “the United States of America” is omitted.”

The Commons disgree to this amendment for the following reason-

36A: Because it is appropriate for the United States of America to be a designated territory for the purposes of sections 71, 73, 84 and 86 of the Extradition Act 2003

The Lords insist on their Amendment No. 36 for the following reason-

36B: Because it is not appropriate for the United States of America to be a designated territory for the purposes of sections 71, 73, 84 and 86 of the Extradition Act 2003

The Commons insist on their disagreement to Lords Amendment No. 36 but propose the following amendments in lieu-

36C: Page 36, line 44, at end insert the following new Clause:-

“Designation of United States of America

(1) In article 3(2) of the Extradition Act 2003 (Designation of Part 2 Territories) Order 2003 (S.I. 2003/3334) (territories designated for the purposes of sections 71, 73, 84 and 86 of the Extradition Act 2003) the entry for the United States of America is omitted.

(2) An order bringing subsection (1) into force is not to be made-

(a) within the period of 12 months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed, or(b) if instruments of ratification of the 2003 treaty have been exchanged.

In this subsection “the 2003 treaty” means the Extradition Treaty between the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America signed at Washington on 31st March 2003.

(3) Subject to subsection (2), if after the end of the period mentioned in subsection (2)(a) a resolution is made by each House of Parliament that subsection (1) should come into force, the Secretary of State shall make an order under section 51 bringing it into force.

(4) An order made by virtue of subsection (3) must bring subsection (1) into force no later than one month after the day on which the resolutions referred to in subsection (3) are made or, if they are made on different days, the day on which the later resolution is made.

(5) If subsection (1) is brought into force, it does not affect the power of the Secretary of State to make a further order under section 71(4), 73(5), 84(7) or 86(7) of the Extradition Act 2003 (c. 41) amending article 3 of the Extradition Act 2003 (Designation of Part 2 Territories) Order 2003 so as to add a reference to the United States of America.

(6) An order such as is mentioned in subsection (5) may include provision repealing this section.”

36D: Page 39, line 1, at end insert-

“( ) section (Designation of United States of America)(2) to (6);”

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Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I beg to move Motion A, That the House do not insist on its Amendment No. 36, in respect of which the Commons have insisted on their disagreement, and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 36C and 36D in lieu.

We return once again to the debate on the scheme of our law on extradition, specifically the provisions governing extradition to and from the United States of America. Since we debated this issue last week, the elected Chamber has again voted decisively and convincingly on this matter. Indeed, the margin by which the other place rejected this House’s amendment on forum more than doubled from 41 to 94 votes. That is a powerful message on which this House will want to reflect carefully.

At this point I wish to say a few words about the government amendments passed by another place. We have tabled these purely out of procedural necessity to enable the matter to return to this House. They do not alter the Government’s position one iota. We cannot and do not agree with the amendments tabled by the Opposition and passed by this House in July.

I want to ensure that there is no misunderstanding about the purpose and effect of these amendments. They include a sunrise provision. I must make it clear to the House that the Government are under no obligation to bring forward the resolution that would be required to bring the new clauses into force and, moreover, have no intention of doing so. Although it is open to others to bring forward a resolution, the Government have no intention whatever of supporting any such resolution. Therefore, the House will not be surprised to learn that the Government cannot support Motion B1, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, which would remove the sunrise provision and bring the forum amendments into force on Royal Assent.

In rejecting the Opposition’s amendments, I again thank the House, including all those on the Benches opposite who spoke so eloquently, for the support and encouragement that they gave me in my visit to Washington in July. A number of noble Lords voted for the Opposition’s amendments in July because they were concerned about the delay in ratifying the 2003 treaty. I assure noble Lords that I used all those salient points to assist me in my deliberations in Washington. Noble Lords wanted to give a clear message to our sister upper House in the United States that it had to meet its side of the bargain, as we had already in part delivered on ours in redesignating the United States under the 2003 Act. I say to the noble Lords, Lord Kingsland and Lord Goodhart, that I understand why they made the points that they did on forum. There are always two sides to an argument. It is incumbent on all of us to try to listen to the other side and seek to understand the concerns that are raised. I understand the concerns that were expressed by all in this House who supported that Motion.

However, there is a balance to be struck between the interests of justice for the victims of crime and the rights of the accused. The Government believe that we

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have struck the right balance in designing our extradition arrangements. The noble Lords, Lord Kingsland and Lord Goodhart, believe that the arrangements on forum should be changed so that the balance is adjusted in favour of the accused. That is a perfectly respectable position for the noble Lords opposite to take, but it is not one which the Government can accept. To accept the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, would add a ground for refusing extradition that is outwith the 2003 treaty with the United States and some 20 other bilateral treaties. Thus, whatever the strength of feeling on the Benches opposite, I respectfully suggest that that is not the way to conduct our international relations.

Having negotiated a new treaty with the Government of the United States of America and pressed tirelessly for the Senate to give it its consent, we cannot now effectively change the terms of the treaty on the back of this Bill. We have known those terms for three years. The Opposition’s amendments would put us and the American Government in an unconscionable position. The amendments would, in effect, require the United States Government to renegotiate the 2003 treaty under duress. I know that this House would not want to put the Government or a close ally in that position.

3.15 pm

I will not repeat all the benefits to the United Kingdom of the new treaty, but we should not lose sight of the fact that it will close loopholes that have enabled suspects to escape justice for some considerable time. The House will, I am sure, be at one with me in wanting to ensure that this country secures the full benefits of the new treaty as quickly as possible, so that British victims of crime can see justice done. I need not remind the House that in 1972 the treaty took five years to ratify. This treaty has taken three. The arguments on evidence have been well rehearsed on both sides of the House, and it is no longer the central issue before us. The tests in the United Kingdom and the United States are not identical, but they are broadly comparable. We have never wavered from that position.

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