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Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall: My Lords, notwithstanding what my noble friend said about how funds are disbursed and made available for acquisitions, what can the Government do to encourage museums
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Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, I have already mentioned the meeting that took place on 10 July. One of the issues on the table was the fact that contemporary art is not being collected as rigorously as it should be. There is a danger that collections will not reflect the need of the changing British society or the world around us. It is important that our museums collect work by young contemporary artists for the future generation.
Lord Harrison: My Lords, I support the call by my noble friend Lord Sheldon for increased funding for the purchase of works of art. Will the Minister also acknowledge the severe problem of providing funds to conserve existing works of art that lie in the vaults of our public museums and the importance of providing sufficient exhibition space so that the public can enjoy those holdings?
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, the National Art Collections Fund, led by that great campaigner David Barrie, wrote a report recently arguing that 92 per cent of museums surveyed felt that there was inadequate funding. It also revealed that 84 per cent of museum directors felt that shortage of space was a serious obstacle to collecting and that 82 per cent felt that the shortage of staff and management time was a serious problem. My noble friend raises important matters that will be looked at as part of the ongoing discussions between the museum and gallery directors and the DCMS.
Baroness Hooper: My Lords, if the noble Lord is unable to reassure us that the Government will increase funding in this area, is he able to tell us that they are looking at other ideas, such as tax incentives, to encourage both public and private patronage?
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, I am able to give the noble Baroness that undertaking. As I said before, there is a very strong feeling that tax opportunities are not being taken up by people who own works of art and who would like to donate them to the country. The DCMS will be trying to make people more aware. The underlying problem is that, if somebody wishes to donate something to the nation and there is an arrangement under acceptance in lieu to do so, the market price is decided by the individual and the advisory panel. Often, the person will take the work of art to a saleroom and will be told that perhaps it will get two or three times the reserve price. That makes it very difficult.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom: My Lords, the Minister clearly has the figures at his fingertips. Can he tell us what happened to arts funding when the noble Lord, Lord Sheldon, was at the Treasury?
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Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Rooker, sitting next to me, says that I asked for that. I accept that. I meant no offence to my noble friend. I can see him rising to answer the question for me.
Lord Sheldon: My Lords, may I remind my noble friend that, when I was at the Treasury, I helped to change inheritance tax so that our national heritage could be retained?
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, always best under Labour.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, is there not a case for the Treasury accepting works of art from taxpayers in lieu of taxes other than inheritance tax?
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, that is one of the proposals under the two or three headings, other than acceptance in lieu, that the DCMS will consider. If there are tax schemes that are not being used and it is possible to get people to use them, that is a good course to pursue.
Baroness O'Cathain: My Lords, in the great examination of how to change the tax regime to encourage more expenditure on the arts and our arts heritage, will the Government consider the simple regime in operation in the United States of America? From everything that the noble Lord said, it sounds as though we will end up with a huge schedule of about 150 different ways of doing things. Let us keep it simple.
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, it will be simple because we are talking about four or five headings, not hundreds. Often, we look to the United States for guidance in this area, but it is not clear that its charity laws and ours coincide in such a way that we can take advantage of them.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, if the Government are prepared to forgo tax revenue by introducing some scheme for tax relief, why do they not just simplify the whole process and make the revenue that they raise available for that purpose? Why do we have to use the tax system? If the Government believe that it is worth having some kind of tax relief, they must think that resources should be applied there, so why bring yet another complication into the tax system rather than doing what the noble Lord, Lord Sheldon, asked?
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, I do not think that it is a complication, because we know what the tax is and we know what the deductions are. The problem is on the other side: the price of the work of art that the country wants to keep. There, we cannot see a way through the extraordinary impact that the private sector, through bidding at salerooms and by private individuals, has had on the price of art.
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Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, if we are talking about contemporary artists, a certain amount depends on the Government’s relations or other relations with the artists themselves. Is the Minister aware, for example, that David Hockney has given a number of his creations to the exhibition in Saltaire, which brings in people from the local area and does a great deal for the arts in West Yorkshire? Should that sort of thing be encouraged?
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, it should be encouraged, but, at the same time, no Government can count on the generosity of a young and brilliant artist in giving the country works. There have been many occasions when David Hockney has been wonderfully supportive in his time and his art—for example, in a campaign to get more money for regional museums. We must not take the help of such people for granted. They must be paid properly for what they do.
Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury: My Lords, in response to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, the Minister mentioned that there was not enough space to exhibit some treasures, so we do not see them. How about loaning them to be displayed in schools, hospitals and other public spaces, so that they do not languish in basements, cupboards and so on?
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, if it is permissible, I would prefer not to answer that question. About 10 years ago, I gave a lecture in which I made exactly that point, and I was pilloried in the press for about 12 months.
Business
3.19 pm
Lord Grocott: My Lords, with the leave of the House, a Statement will be repeated this afternoon. The subject of the Statement is child support redesign. It will be given by my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and we propose to take the Statement immediately following consideration of Commons amendments to the Government of Wales Bill.
Procedure of the House: Select Committee Report
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. Our recommendation, that Unstarred Questions should be tabled in No Day Named before seeking a date from the Government Whips’ Office, is meant to avoid the situation where an Unstarred Question appears on the Order Paper as if from nowhere. We think that this will be welcome.
However, I imagine that the House is more interested in the general debate day and whether we should stick to Thursday or revert to Wednesday. Let me briefly remind the House of the history. The matter first arose
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The experiment ended with the last general debate day at the end of June, and the Procedure Committee has reviewed it. For what it is worth, statistical evidence shows that there has been little change on the general debate day. Average attendance in the Chamber on new-style Thursdays was the same as on old-style Wednesdays, at around 380 Members. The average number of speakers per available hour in general debates did not change. The average limit on Back-Bench speaking time fell from 11 minutes to 10 minutes and an average sitting on the general debate day was 15 minutes longer.
It is the other day that appears to have changed. Average attendance on an old-style Thursday was 350; on a new-style Wednesday, it has jumped to 430. Whether that is a good or a bad thing, I would not like to say. The report recommends that we stick with Thursday for general debates. We accept that there are different views around the House and it is for the House to decide. My view is that what we have now is working and we should stick with it.
Moved, That the sixth report from the Select Committee be agreed to (HL Paper 231).—(The Chairman of Committees.)
Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank: My Lords, I should like to refer to the general debates and, in particular, to paragraphs 4 to 8 of the report. As the Chairman of Committees has said, since 1999 there has been a question about whether the general debate day should be switched from Wednesday to Thursday. On the first vote, there was no wish to see a change. In January 2001, a change was proposed, but, following a Division, there was no change. However, as the report shows, and the chairman reminds us, on 24 March 2005 the House voted to switch the debate day from Wednesday to Thursday for an experimental period.
In moving an amendment last year, I said that switching government business from Thursday to Wednesday would effectively lead to a three- or even a two-and-a-half-day parliamentary week, and that in due course Thursdays would imperceptibly die. Eventually there would be poorer attendance at Questions and fewer speakers in general debates. There would be fewer Members in the corridors and lobbies, the Library, the Guest Room, the Bishops’ Bar and dining rooms elsewhere. The House would be like a half-closed place of work, empty of life and flat. However, the processes of Parliament are complex and subtle. They are very different from the routine procedures and relationships in other institutions. Parliament is unique and special, and we should hold fast to its particular qualities.
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I said then, as I say now, that it is very convenient for busy Ministers to be largely free on Thursday. In the Division on 24 March last year, there was certainly a very full turnout of Ministers and Whips, led by the noble Baroness the Lord President, to vote for the switch. I also said then as I say now that it is convenient for government Back Benchers, who are often bored stiff in helping to keep a House, to go home early at least after Questions on a Thursday. In March last year almost 100 government Back Benchers voted for change, more than sometimes vote in routine Divisions.
The best case was put by the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, who said that the House prided itself on being representative, including its regional nature. For Members who live and work in the north, it would be very convenient to end the parliamentary week at the end of Wednesday. The noble Lord, Lord Gordon of Strathblane, explained eloquently the difficulties faced by Members coming from distant places.
For the most part I believe that my own anxieties last year are justified. The House is usually dead by lunch time on Thursday. We used to hold party meetings on Thursday in preparation for the following week, but we now meet on Tuesday or Wednesday, so at best in the middle of the week. My view remains that Parliament is diminished when Ministers are largely free, except for a few summer weeks, from their appearance in this House. On my own criteria, I can find no evidence that the experiment has been a positive success, at least in strengthening Parliament and raising its standing. But I recognise that the tide is flowing against what was once the majority and my own view, so I reluctantly acquiesce in the sixth report.
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I want to address another matter, but as it happens I agree strongly with the views just expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers. It is the duty of this House to hold Ministers to account, and as a result of this change we have made it easier for Ministers to come and give an account of themselves than was the case previously because now they hardly ever have to be present on a Thursday for that purpose.
Be that as it may, I am more concerned with the issue of Unstarred Questions, which the committee also addressed and to which the report referred. The Chairman of Committees was good enough to agree that I should submit a short paper to the Procedure Committee on this matter, in which I suggested that Unstarred Questions should be decided by ballot and not by the slightly magic-circle arrangements we have at present. Your Lordships know that one registers one’s interest in asking an Unstarred Question with the Government Whips’ Office. If one wishes, it can be put down under No Day Named as well, but at present one is not obliged to do so. Sooner or later the private secretary to the Government Chief Whip will offer a space for one’s Unstarred Question. I do not think that that is a very satisfactory arrangement because it leaves open to abuse the question of which Unstarred Question might be selected on a particular day. While I do not suggest for a moment that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has participated in any
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The Procedure Committee has now suggested that all potential Unstarred Questions must be entered into the No Day Named list on the Minute, as well as some other changes to the Minute. I welcome that because it will mark a small improvement on the present arrangements. However, I still think that there are difficulties. The fact is that an Unstarred Question is an extremely attractive and effective means of holding Ministers to account and asking about matters of importance. However, at the moment it is difficult to get one except far in advance. That of course is more a question of supply and demand and thus perhaps a different matter. So I regret that the Procedure Committee did not see fit to consider or to agree to my suggestions, but I certainly support the improved arrangements now proposed.
Much of the discussion surrounding Unstarred Questions and the general debate day was included in the record of the proceedings of the Procedure Committee, which apparently has not been published. I have made inquiries about that. The Printed Paper Office was not able to help and, apparently, it has not been entered on the House of Lords website as is usual. I should be grateful if the Lord Chairman would look into the matter because that is a disappointment.
We now have a slightly more regularised arrangement for listing Unstarred Questions, but what happens to one which comes to the top of the list and the noble Lord in question cannot accept it—no doubt for perfectly good reasons? Does that Question then go to the bottom of the list or does he go on being asked until a slot is found to the convenience of all?
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton: My Lords, I have noted the very important points made by the previous two speakers. I have not addressed myself to the merits of Wednesdays and Thursdays but I note that the committee recommends that your Lordships should make something permanent. Permanence is a very long time—perhaps longer than this House has been in existence—therefore I would have expected the committee to advance reasons for its choice. However, all it does is recommend that paragraph 5 be preferred to paragraph 6. The Chairman of Committees gave some reasons for the recommendation which I understood to be mainly statistical. For those Members of the House who are as non-numerate as I, having these figures waved about orally does not help us to reach a conclusion. Presumably, we are allowed to conclude for or against a committee report.
Would it be possible for the Lord Chairman to take the report back and print the reasons that he gave? I would have thought the House would require some written evidence of reasons of this kind. It may be that, in my enforced absence from the House, new practices have been introduced in the past six months—in which case, I am very sorry to draw the attention of the House to what may be a new practice—but committees should give reasons. If your
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Earl Ferrers: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn, has a point; no reasons have been given. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, but he is too tender about his views. He asked whether the change had strengthened Parliament and raised standards. It has not. The committee should be congratulated on coming to the conclusion that it did if the option was to continue with the experiment or to go back to what it was previously. The previous system was a disaster; therefore the experiment, in so far as it is an improvement, is a good thing.
When we had set-piece debates on a Wednesday, sandwiched between government business on Tuesdays and Thursdays, the House was always full and people took an interest in what was going on. Now people come in on Thursdays, and the House is well attended to start with, but by lunch time it is half empty and by three o’clock, as has been pointed out, the place is dead. It cannot be right that at three o’clock the only people left are those taking part in the debate.
It was much better when the House sat at three o’clock on a Thursday. You had your party meetings before, the House sat at three o’clock and it was full. I know that one does not like going back on things, so perhaps the Lord Chairman could consider, in the next experiment, using the precedent used for the past 50 years which has worked extremely well. There is, I agree, one drawback: those who live in the north of England, Scotland, the Midlands and almost anywhere north of Shenfield find it disagreeable to spend a Thursday down in your Lordships’ House. It is only a Thursday, not a Friday or Saturday. Ten years ago, your Lordships’ expenses allowance, including night allowance and day attendance, was £107. Now it is £231.50 and we cannot be bothered to be here. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, that that is not strengthening Parliament. It is not doing Parliament any good or helping to hold the Government to account, if that is what we are supposed to do. I hope that when the noble Lord the Lord Chairman thinks of some new wheeze for the future, perhaps it will be to take the precedent which has worked extremely well.
Lord Peston: My Lords, may I offer a rare word in support of the Government and therefore in support of the Procedure Committee? Having listened to the debate, I think that people’s perception of the past is different from mine. I have been here for 20 years, and this Government have been subject to more critical scrutiny and more adverse votes than any before. The idea that Ministers are getting an easy ride is the most preposterous thing I have ever heard. That is one problem. The second is the idea that these general debates are so marvellous. I may have been special, but I have addressed a large number of empty Houses over the years. I do not blame anybody for not wanting to come and hear what I have to say, but the
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I am not sure that I followed the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, but I think he said something that I agree with—that Unstarred Questions should be subject to a ballot. That is an extremely good idea. One slight drawback is that it would be tricky to include absolutely urgent Questions, but subject to that point, a ballot is overwhelmingly the best approach. I hope that the Procedure Committee will reflect on the noble Lord’s proposal.
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