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Lord Renton: My Lords, I also warmly support this amendment for a rather special reason. Forty-six years ago, I helped the late Lord Butler of Saffron Walden to pilot the Life Peerages Act 1958 through the other place. Now, all your Lordships except the 92 hereditary Peers, the Bishops and the Law Lords are dependent on that Act as part of our law and the composition of your Lordships' House. If any doubt whatever were thrown upon it, it would be disastrous for that composition. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, whose open mindedness I have admired on many occasions, will realise that my noble friend has moved a vitally important amendment.
Lord Monson: My Lords, we spoke on this matter at considerable length on the previous occasion. Subsequently I have seen copies of some of the correspondence that the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, received. I was alarmed to see that the Government maintain that it may be necessary to prolong the life of Parliament beyond five years in certain emergency situations. I find that very worrying. However, over and above that, I wonder what on earth is wrong with the belt-and-braces
approach suggested by the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe. It may not be entirely necessary but at least, as she said, it would give enormous reassurance to the millions of people throughout Britain of all parties and none who are extremely unhappy about this Bill.
The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, surely personal and individual liberties cannot be offhandedly dismissed in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Lester, did on the basis that the Human Rights Act was good enough. A whole part of our liberties—
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Earl at this stage but I did not say that. I said that we needed a written constitution and not an anomalous list of old statutes, some of which are important and some less so.
The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, the noble Lord obviously does not understand human liberty in the way that I do. I understand human liberty as a Whig and as someone who seriously thinks that one of the greatest acts of human history was the 1688 settlement. To dismiss it as just pooh-pah, which I thought the noble Lord did, and to say that we need a written constitution along the lines of republican France seems to me rather an odd idea for a Liberal.
Be that as it may, we have had our little tit-tat. The serious point I hope to make is that a very serious longstop clause must be contained in a power given to Ministers to amend or repeal legislation by diktat. This collection of Acts is the minimum that should be safeguarded. I would not trust my own party with the power, let alone the noble Baroness, much as I love her, or some other parliamentarians. I simply do not trust human beings with that power. There must be a safeguard of some kind.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, I very much enjoyed the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Lester. I admired his adroitness in using what is a very limited amendment to give us a dissertation on a written constitution. No doubt he will return to that at some point in the future.
I am attracted to this amendment simply because I know that many people outside Parliament are very worried about this Bill. They need reassurance. It is all right for the Government and, indeed, the Opposition for that matter, to say, "You can trust us", but the fact of the matter is that none of the governments of the past few years have shown themselves to be utterly trustworthy. They come forward with all sorts of very important legislation at short notice that is not properly discussed, for example, the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Bill, which went through the House of Commons in three days, and was amended to some degree and improved only in this House over a period of, I believe, 11 days. People outside this House are learning not to trust governments in the way they used to.
Lord Archer of Sandwell: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, but does he have it in mind
that we are discussing a situation where there is an emergency, and that any power about which we are talking depends upon there being an emergency?
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, I am perfectly well aware of that, but many people do not trust the Government to act in accordance with the legislation which is in operation. That is what I am getting at—that the general public do not trust governments in the way that they used to. That is why there is much concern outside this House among the general population about a Bill that gives the Government extraordinary powers. A number of letters that I have received mention these very Acts as being safeguards which could be swept aside under this Bill. It is not only myself and other noble Lords who are concerned about them; ordinary people outside, who have a concern for democracy and the continuation of the protection of our freedoms and democracy, are worried. That is why I believe that it may be necessary to include this amendment in the Bill.
The noble Baroness who is to reply to the amendment may well be able to assuage the fears not only of noble Lords but of others outside this House. She may be able to give us assurances that convince us in this House that the Bill will be all right without the amendment. I hope that she will give that matter much attention because many people will need much persuasion that the Bill is all right as it is.
Lord Elton: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Lester, said that the list in my noble friend's amendment is anachronistic because many of the items in it have been amended, and that it is incomplete because many items have been left out. However, the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, rightly said that this is a symbolic list. The amendment is symbolic in much the way that my noble friend Lord Onslow is symbolic. He is also anachronistic, if I may say so, and he has doubtless yet to achieve all that he wishes in life. However, he is an extremely important ornament and functioning part of your Lordships' legislature.
This amendment may also be anachronistic, but, unlike my noble friend, it can go to the House of Commons and be brought up to date. The proper answer for the Government to give is not that (c), (d), (e) and perhaps (f) are not right and (g) and (h) ought to be altered and (i) is superfluous. The answer ought to be, "We understand that the House of Lords, not for the first time, is resonating to an anxiety in the country and trying to allay it by reasonable measures". This is such a reasonable measure. I ask the noble Baroness in replying to the amendment to undertake to give such reassurance. The House of Commons is at liberty to produce its own amendment, or its amendment to this amendment. In that way she may yet satisfy us tonight.
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, in an undated letter to my noble friend Lady Buscombe the noble Baroness said the following:
- "The Government shares the concerns expressed that emergency powers should not be capable of making substantive amendments, which undermine the constitution of the United Kingdom".
I certainly agree with the noble Baroness, but, unfortunately, that is not what the Bill says. We seek to take the noble Baroness's sentiment and enshrine it in the Bill.
The noble Lord, Lord Lester, pointed out that the group of statutes which we propose should be safeguarded constituted a ragbag, or some such term—I forget his exact words. Perhaps it is but the fact is that we do not have a written constitution to write into this Bill, and I suggest that we are unlikely to have one by Prorogation on Thursday. Therefore, we have to protect what we do have. As we have an unwritten constitution which consists of a variety of statutes, we have to pick those that we think are the most appropriate. I agree with the noble Lord that the list is not exclusive or exhaustive and that other statutes could be added. I am sure that the noble Baroness will pray that in aid in her defence. However, we are at least drawing a line in the sand. We are saying that at the very minimum these important aspects of our constitution should be protected.
The Government, by their own admission, have no business in enabling a situation whereby emergency regulations can be used to alter the fundamental constitution of our country. That is the position in the Bill. I would certainly prefer a Bill that was much more specific and which said what these powers could be used to amend, but we have been denied that. Therefore, we must at the very least have a list of those important constitutional statutes that cannot be amended by this Bill.
6 p.m.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I have had one of my most enjoyable 23 minutes in a very long time. I will always remember the noble Lord, Lord Elton, describing the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, as a symbolic functioning ornament; it will live long in my memory. However, I want to make a number of matters plain.
It was not my intention to appear patronising in the letter. The noble Baroness will know that, although I address my letters to her, I hope that they will be shared more broadly with noble Lords. Therefore, I try to phrase them in an inclusive rather than exclusive way. If I failed on this occasion, I beg her pardon. I hope that she will recognise that offence was by no means intended.
I understand the logic of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, in relation to the nature of a written constitution. I agree with him on why the provisions should not be in the Bill. In no way do I misconstrue his interpretation; we all know that he is one of the most valiant supporters of human rights and interests in the country. It would be impossible to misinterpret his intent in that regard.
I reassure the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, that republican France is still very different from Her Majesty's United Kingdom, and is likely to remain so. It is equal, but we in Britain greatly enjoy that difference.
I understand the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Peyton, that there is an odour of casualness. However, had he had the benefit of enjoying every part
of the Bill, as I have, he would have noticed that there was no casualness in the way in which it had been treated. Every minute detail has been scrutinised, worried over and argued about. He can rest assured. I thank him for his flattery in relation to the nature of my voice; I shall seek to retain it for his pleasure in due course.
The noble Lord, Lord Renton, was concerned about the Life Peerages Act. Perhaps I should declare an interest, having benefited from it myself. Some outside the House would find it odd that we should say to the courts of England and Wales, and to the public and future governments, that it is more important to protect the ability of Her Majesty to create life peerages than to protect people discriminated against on grounds of race or sex. It is curious that it is more important to preserve the rights of 92 hereditary Peers than those of the devolved administrations.
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