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Lord Fitt: I associate myself with the concerns expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Blood. I made some facetious reference to this order earlier. On reading it today, I think that it will be very difficult to implement it in certain areas and estates in Northern Ireland. Let us take the example of a young boy who is creating mayhem in an estate such as Ballymurphy or Turf Lodge, defying the wishes of the people on that estate, and whose father is a member of a paramilitary organisation. Is there any way in which an order can be implemented against the wishes of his father?
Recently, the Northern Ireland papers were full of stories of the INLA, a paramilitary organisation, which had taken it upon itself to police Ardoyne. It was beating up young people in the area and accusing them of anti-social behaviour. Two or three of the young boys were so badly beaten up, terrified and harassed that they hanged themselves. The Northern Ireland papers were full of reports on the issue. The paramilitaries in those areas have taken it upon themselves to decide what types of activity will be permitted in the area.
The noble Baroness, Lady Blood, said that she feels that the legislation has come far too quickly given the situation in Northern Ireland. I wonder whether adequate discussion took place with the PSNI. Was it asked whether it was prepared to police this order and to deal with all its possible side effects? I cannot see members of the PSNI going into estates under the control of paramilitaries, some of which are loyalist and some of which are republican. It is a fact of life in Northern Ireland that the PSNI is totally excluded from those areas.
I noticed a detail about young boys harassing neighbours. The neighbours are at risk as well. If a young boy's mother complains to the local authority or the police, they can find themselves in extreme danger. The answer given to this is the same as all other times when we have discussed these matters: that there should be no "no go" areas in Northern Ireland. But we have to face the fact that there are "no go" areas in Northern Ireland. Young hooligans in them can get away with effective murder: seven young boys were beaten up by a paramilitary organisation, the INLA, in the Ardoyne area.
The noble Baroness asked for further discussion on the order before it is implemented. I support her expression of concern. I hope that it is possible to have further discussion that will make this order in any way acceptable in Northern Ireland.
Lord Hylton: I follow my noble friend Lady Blood. It would have been far better to have had a tailor-made order suited to the particular circumstances of Northern Ireland. For that reason, I agree with my
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noble friend that there would be much merit in postponing the implementation of the order until some of the detailed problems can be sorted out. There are three problems that I wish to mention.
The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, mentioned the time required to obtain an order. Perhaps there may be a solution to that in that I hope that an interim order can be obtained much more quickly than the full-blown one. Secondly, how will these orders relate to restorative justice? By that, I do not simply mean police cautioning. I am referring to matters such as voluntary agreements that have already been mentioned and the relationship between the person complained of and the youth offending team. Under the heading of restorative justice, it would be very good if some of those who have behaved in an anti-social way were involved in repairing the damage that they had done; for example, removing graffiti that they had put up. If they could also be brought to sufficient consideration of their behaviour, they would become willing to apologise to those who have suffered from it. Those are all forms of repairing and restoring the damage that individuals have caused.
Lastly, on matters relating to breaches of orders, I notice that these can involve imprisonment for up to six months. I question the effect of that in practice. It is a relatively short sentence and it is bound to disrupt the schooling of those who are still, in theory at least, attending school. What will be the impact on people aged 10 to 16? Will they be placed in youth custody centres? Have the Government thought through the question of the breach of orders?
Lord Glentoran: I had prepared a question for the Minister about how ASBOs would be policed in paramilitary controlled areas. I did not put it because, while I am a great admirer of the noble Baroness, Lady Blood, and have taken her advice on a number of occasions and will continue to do so, the whole of Northern Ireland is not a paramilitary area. There are many urban areas of Northern Ireland where ASBOs could be a useful adjunct to the judicial system. Of course, all members of the Committee understand that ASBOs would be almost impossible to use in certain areas.
Lord Laird: I welcome the draft Anti-social Behaviour Order. I firmly support the measures taken against anti-social behaviour to restore stability to communities. The Ulster Unionist Party supports the protection of the human rights of young people, families and elderly people in communities throughout Northern Ireland whose lives have been blighted by anti-social behaviour. The Government must be less complacent about the problem of anti-social behaviour in Northern Ireland than it has been in the past six years. They must keep the working of the ASBOs in constant view and make promptly any changes that are required.
Will any of the lessons learnt from best practice in England and Wales be applied to the introduction of this legislation in Northern Ireland? Will there be, for
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example, an anti-social behaviour unit at the NIO as there is at the Home Office? I welcome the draft order. I consider it a step in the right direction.
Baroness Amos: I thank the noble Lords who have spoken and welcome the positive comments that have been made about the need for anti-social behaviour orders, while recognising the concerns expressed.
The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, raised the issue of why this has taken so long. Members of the Committee will know that local authorities in England and Wales had powers in relation to housing, education, policing and other areas within their control that did not apply to district councils in Northern Ireland. It was therefore difficult to see how provisions in the 1998 order could map on to the Northern Ireland position. There was also a desire to see how these provisions operated in England and Wales. Picking up the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Laird, we wanted to learn from the experience of England and Wales.
Changes have been made to the 1998 legislation by the Police Reform Act 2002 and, most recently, by the Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003. In the light of these changes, the success of ASBOs in England and Wales and the fact that the community safety strategy that was published in March last year identified that the legislation in England and Wales needed to be examined to see whether it was appropriate for Northern Ireland, it was decided to bring forward legislation for Northern Ireland now to replicate the provisions for England and Wales in a form that reflects Northern Ireland's housing and local government structures.
It is important to note that in England and Wales practioners' funding costs have gone down as they have gained experience in relation to anti-social behaviour orders. It is important to strike the right balance, avoiding unnecessary bureaucracy and having a robust process in place.
On the issues around the difficulty of implementing this order in Northern Ireland—the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, and other Members of the Committee spoke about this—an anti-social behaviour order does not require the consent of a child's parent for an order to be made. If a child who is the subject of an ASBO breaches the order, he or she would be liable for prosecution anywhere in Northern Ireland. The police in Northern Ireland are fully engaged in this process and are involved in the planning. All three partners can enforce an anti-social behaviour order.
The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, asked about the use of police resources. Other Members of the Committee were also concerned about the impact of this on the PSNI. ASBOs can save police time, much of which is spent catching persistent offenders or, more particularly, dealing with the offences that they commit. Many offenders come to court with 100 appearances against their names. Taking those people out of their offending patterns, taking them out
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of the areas where they regularly commit offences, will enable the police to take action against them simply for being in an area or undertaking an activity from which they are barred. The police will not have to catch them committing an offence. That will save substantial amounts of police time and enable them to focus on driving down crime. In a recent survey, the PSNI found that 85 per cent of burglaries in south Belfast were carried out by 15 individuals. Dealing with those people and those patterns of behaviour will start to make a real change to the figures and to the crimes that add up to a host of human tragedies.
The noble Baroness, Lady Blood, was particularly concerned about the issue of enforcement, which was also raised by the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran. It is not our view that we should not deal with anti-social behaviour because doing so would highlight the activities of youngsters who would gain unwelcome attention from paramilitaries. The argument that convictions highlight people's criminal activities could be made against the entire criminal code but it does not follow that we should abandon the criminal code. However, as a result of the consultation, we took on board the fact that, when appropriate, the court should be able to impose reporting restrictions in order to achieve an appropriate response to provide some degree of protection. I hope that that demonstrates that the consultation processes are valid.
On the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, about ABCs, they are written voluntary agreements between people involved in anti-social behaviour and authorities such as the police and housing departments. They were introduced in December 1999 in the Borough of Islington so they are a comparatively recent development. They are now widespread throughout police force areas in England and Wales. They are designed to complement ASBOs but have an attendant flexibility due to being voluntary. They do not require legislation. We hope that they will be taken on board with ASBOs rather than it being a matter of there being one or the other.
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