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Lord Sheppard of Didgemere: My Lords, the Minister has either answered or dismissed many of the questions that we asked the Treasury. Does that make it doubly sad that the Treasury could not give us the answers if they were so simple?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I followed my noble friend Lord Peston, who refrained from the kind of debate we had last year about the Treasury's attitude towards the Select Committee. I thought that it would be an advantage to your Lordships if I did not enter that debate. I could say many things on the subject, going back to the Commons' resolutions of 1671 and 1678, but if the noble Lord, Lord Sheppard, will forgive me, I am not going to do that this evening.
I accept that the committee reported and that it is proper for me to respond to what it said, which is what I have been doing tonight. It would be better for all of us if we left it at that.
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I turn to pensions. What the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, called so-called simplification did not meet with the agreement of other speakers. If 170 pages of text replace 350 pages of primary legislation and also replace many thousands of pages of guidance, that cannot be called so-called simplification; it is real simplification.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, described that as a legitimate alibi for a part—I accept that it is only a part—of the length of the Finance Bill. I rest my case on his remarks. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, said that we were favouring public sector final salary pensions. I thought that the consensus was that the 20:1 factor had been accepted as being broadly accurate for both final salaries and defined contribution schemes and that any alternative put forward—and there were alternatives put forward—had been resisted as excessively complicated.
The National Association of Pension Funds said that there had been a good consultation with the Revenue and the Association of British Insurers described it as a very thorough and constructive consultation process.
So, on nearly all of the issues we have some worthwhile contributions from the committee, to which I have attempted to respond. I have discovered that it was the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, who said that he had no difficulty with the objectives of the five topics that were covered. Of course, legitimate points were made by those who gave evidence to the committee.
I shall finish with a word about Finance Bills, particularly in response to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, to whom we all defer, because of his experience in the Treasury and as Chancellor and because of his sterling work on the revision of tax legislation. Yes, of course there has been an increase in the sheer volume of the Finance Bill. We can see it there on the Table. Yes, there has been an increase in the length of the Red Book. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, objected to what he called the self-congratulatory wording of the Red Book. I shall not attempt to give an aesthetic criticism of it, but I notice that the noble and learned Lord and other noble Lords have talked about the wording of it rather than attempting to rebut the facts in the Red Book.
When this party was in opposition, the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, from the Opposition Front Bench used to take the Red Book every year and he would tear it apart. He would take it line by line, page by page, table by table until the Treasury spokesman for the Conservative government could hardly bear it. When we have an Opposition who are able to do that, when we have a Treasury which makes it possible by the degree of inaccuracy and over-optimism that was at
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times expressed in Red Books under the previous administration, then my task will be a good deal more difficult than it has been.
However, this evening it has been my privilege to listen to and congratulate three excellent maiden speakers. It has been my privilege and my pleasure to be able to respond, as far as I can within reasonable time limits, to the concerns of the Select Committee and it has been my privilege to present a Budget which is a tribute to the guardianship of our economy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer over a period of seven years.
On Question, Bill read a second time; Committee negatived.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen and His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales to acquaint the House that they, having been informed of the purport of the Finance Bill, have consented to place their prerogative and interest, so far as they are affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.
Then, Standing Order 47 having been dispensed with, Bill read a third time, and passed.
Finance Bill 2004: Economic Affairs Committee Report
Lord Peston rose to move, That this House takes note of the report of the Select Committee on Economic Affairs on the Finance Bill 2004 (First Report, HL Paper 109).
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I did not realise that I was to speak again. I add my voice to that of other noble Lords and say what an excellent debate we have had. I particularly thank those who made their maiden speeches. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House takes note of the report of the Select Committee on Economic Affairs on the Finance Bill 2004 (First Report, HL Paper 109).—(Lord Peston.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Health Protection Agency Bill [HL]
Returned from the Commons agreed to with a privilege amendment; the amendment was considered and agreed to.
Public Audit (Wales) Bill [HL]
Returned from the Commons agreed to with amendments and with a privilege amendment; it was ordered that the Commons amendments be printed.
House adjourned at ten minutes past ten o'clock.
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Official Report of the theNorthern Ireland Orders Grand Committee
The Committee met at half past three of the clock.
[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Haskel) in the Chair.]
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Haskel): As we rarely debate orders in Grand Committee, it may be helpful to say a word about the procedure for today's Grand Committee. Our proceedings are essentially the same as those of the House. Noble Lords will speak standing; all noble Lords are free to attend and participate; and the proceedings will be reported in Hansard.
As we are in Committee, Members may speak more than once on any Motion.
I should perhaps make it clear to noble Lords that this Committee is charged only to consider orders, not to approve or disapprove them. The Motion to approve will be moved in the Chamber in the usual way.
The main difference between our proceedings and the proceedings on the Floor of the House is that the House has agreed that there shall be no Divisions in a Grand Committee. Any Motion on which agreement cannot be reached should be withdrawn.
Perhaps I may also remind noble Lords that if a Division is called in the Chamber, this Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes.
Budget (No. 2) (Northern Ireland) Order 2004
The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Amos): I beg to move that the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the draft Budget (No. 2) (Northern Ireland) Order 2004.
It is a matter of regret that this legislation is not being considered by the Northern Ireland Assembly, and we all hope that the ongoing review process will lead to a speedy restoration of the devolved institution. However, good government and the provision of public services in Northern Ireland must continue and therefore it falls to Parliament to consider the issue before us today.
The main purpose of the draft order is to authorise the balance of the 2004–05 main estimates, which is in addition to the vote on account that was approved by Parliament in March. The vote on account, amounting to approximately 45 per cent of the total provision for the 2004–05 financial year, enabled funds to continue to flow to public services for the early months of this financial year until the main estimates before us today could be presented and considered.
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The balance of the 2004–05 main estimates contained in the order amounts to some £6 billion resources and £5.5 billion cash. When added to the vote on account, it will take the total amount authorised for 2004–05 to £11.3 billion resources and £9.9 billion cash. This reflects the outcome of the 2003 priorities and budget process announced by my honourable friend in another place on 13 January 2004.
That outcome evolves through a process involving widespread consultation with a range of local organisations including city and district councils, voluntary and community organisations, the business community and trade unions. In addition, as part of the consultation process, my honourable friend met with the main Northern Ireland political parties.
I can therefore assure your Lordships that the spending plans before us today reflect the priorities of the local community in Northern Ireland. The order also seeks to authorise the excess resource amount in both the 2001–02 and 2002–03 financial years. The matters have been the subject of consideration and of subsequent report by the Public Accounts Committee. The report which was published on 25 May 2004 recommended that the excesses should be authorised by Parliament by means of excess votes.
Considerable detail regarding the sums sought is set out in the documents supporting the 2004–05 main estimates and the statement of excess for 2001–02 and for 2002–03. Copies of these supporting documents have been placed in the Library of the House.
The introduction within each estimate provides a brief description of the nature of expenditure covered by the estimate, while the Part II subhead detail provides a breakdown of the proposed expenditure by functional area, with the associated cash requirement for the whole estimate. Comparative figures for the 2002–03 and 2003–04 financial years are also provided at Part II. I commend the order.
Moved, That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the draft Budget (No. 2) (Northern Ireland) Order 2004.—(Baroness Amos.)
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