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Baroness Amos: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken. This has been a difficult discussion because we are dealing with difficult and sensitive issues. I shall try to deal with the points as they arose. First, in moving the amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Laird, said that he considered the measure to be in clear contravention of the Belfast agreement. I say to the noble Lord that it is clear, and stated, in the Belfast agreement that the police service should be representative of the society that it polices. That is at the core of what the 50:50 rule tries to achieve.
I understand the point made by the noble Lords, Lord Laird and Lord Kilclooney, and others with respect to the hurt felt by those who are turned down.
But I want to emphasise that those who are accepted are accepted on merit. Those who are rejected are rejected because sufficient qualified applicants from their community background in the merit pool have scored better. It is very important that noble Lords understand and recognise that point.
Lord Kilclooney: My Lords, that is a lovely way of presenting the case. The reality is that some who are rejected are rejected not on grounds of merit but on grounds of sectarian discrimination.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, as I said in my opening remarks, it is most important that we recognise that 96 per cent of those who apply are rejected. That position can occur in any job application. In referring to the 50:50 rule, we are talking about a Protestant pool and a Catholic pool, but those in the pool must pass the test. They must be qualified before they enter the pool and before they can be accepted. Indeed, some people pass the test but are then not accepted because others in the pool have a higher score. That is the reality of recruitment.
Lord Laird: My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way. Can she confirm that, in any one campaign, it is possible for a person from one community to score a higher mark and not get in and for someone in the other community who obtains a lower mark to be accepted?
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I am sure that that is possible. It will depend on the number of applicants who pass the test and it will depend on the pool. However—I must emphasise this point—the reality is that everyone who is appointed has passed the test and is there on merit. It would be very wrong of us to undermine the quality of the applicants and those who have been accepted into the Police Service of Northern Ireland because the fact is that they are there on merit.
Lord Glentoran: My Lords, I thank the Lord President for giving way. As I understand what she is telling us and as I understand the situation, the merit principle stops once the pool of applicants who have passed the test is filled. There is a ladder up to the pool from which people are appointed. Once in the pool, the 50:50 rule is then followed and merit ceases.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I am not sure that I understand the noble Lord. My understanding is that there are more people in the pool than there are jobs. Therefore, a person can enter the pool but still not be appointed. That applies to both communities. Some people, both Catholics and Protestants, pass the test and get into the pool but are then not appointed because there are not enough jobs. Is that clear to the noble Lord?
Lord Glentoran: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness. Yes, it is absolutely clear. Those who get the jobs do so on the 50:50 basis rather than on a 1:20 merit basis.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, that is absolutely right. The noble Lord, Lord Laird, also said that he wanted us
to reach the point where religion was of no importance. I cannot agree with that more heartily. Of course, that is what we all want to see, but I hope we all agree that we want to see a police service in Northern Ireland where the people see the police as their police.The noble Lord raised some questions about equality and human rights. I can say to the noble Lord that the Equality Commission has said that it considers the achievement of a police service which is representative of the whole community it serves to be of prime importance. The Human Rights Commission has said that the provision should be renewed.
The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, mentioned the fact that fair employment legislation has existed in Northern Ireland for many years. I agree with that. I also agree with the noble Lord when he says that we need community leaders and political leaders to encourage members of their community to apply to join the police service. Again, I endorse that view wholeheartedly. I also agree that if Sinn Fein joined the Policing Board, that would achieve more than anything that the Government or the police could do to encourage applications from republicans.
The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, my noble friend Lord Dubs and others paid tribute to the role of the SDLP. I believe it is very important that we welcome the significant contribution that it has made. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, that this is a sensitive situation. We have seen good results from 50:50. I think that we are at the stage where it is too soon to get rid of it. Here I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, who said that it would be premature to change the formula.
My noble friend Lord Dubs said that he saw so many good people not being selected as a good thing. I can only repeat what I said earlier: we should all be pleased to see such good quality in terms of the calibre of candidates, both Protestant and Catholic, who are applying to join the Police Service of Northern Ireland and, indeed, we should be pleased at the quantity of candidates. I recognise the disappointment felt by those who are not recruited; but, at the end of the day, I think that it is a very positive thing to see so many applications.
The noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, told us that he felt very passionately about these issues. I entirely understand that. In particular, I welcome the experience and expertise that the noble Lord brings to this House on policing matters in Northern Ireland. He raised in particular the issue of the ethos of principle and practice in terms of Britishness. I say to the noble Lord that the Government are working hard to reflect the diversity—a diversity which I think we should welcome—across the United Kingdom. The noble Lord was concerned that we needed to build confidence in the process. I entirely agree with him. As I said in my opening remarks, we will keep this issue under review.
On the point of the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, about the possibility of creating a divided force, that has not been the experience to date. On listening to the Chief Constable of Northern Ireland that is certainly not the
experience. Indeed, my noble friend Lord Dubs gave an example of the training days that he had witnessed. I can only repeat that these are special measures for a special situation.The noble Lords, Lord Maginnis and Lord Kilclooney, raised the situation regarding other forms of discrimination. The Patten report acknowledged that there were issues of community representation at nearly every level in the Police Service of Northern Ireland, but it stated that the religio-political imbalance was the most vital to be tackled if the police were to gain acceptance in the community.
We need to improve female recruitment. The proportion of women in the regulars has increased from 10.88 per cent in 1998 to 16.47 per cent at the beginning of 2004. On the position of black applicants, the application process requires applicants to declare whether they are Catholic or non-Catholic. So, if an applicant is both black and Catholic he will be counted as Catholic; and if he is black and non-Catholic he will be counted as non-Catholic.
With respect to the position on the Policing Board and the divisions which may sometimes arise on it, perhaps I may say to noble Lords that the Policing Board exists to represent the different facets of political and other opinion within Northern Ireland society, and it would be surprising if its members agreed on all issues.
The noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, was concerned that we would institutionalize "sectarianism"—as he called it. I can reassure the noble Lord that although the order deals with continuing the provision for another three years, the legislation is clear that these provisions are temporary. The Government do not want to keep them for any longer than necessary.
Perhaps I may end by saying that the police have made some changes to simplify the process. The process has been rationalised so that non-appointed qualified applicants can omit the initial selection test for the next two competitions. There has also been a change regarding the medical examination to facilitate qualified re-applicants, although it is important to ensure that candidates are and remain fit for appointment.
The Government with the Chief Constable are looking at ways of making the recruitment process less irksome for re-applicants. I know that my right honourable friend the Minister of State is looking to see if there is any further scope to reduce the costs and to facilitate applicants.
I hope that I have addressed the points raised, and I hope that noble Lords now feel able to support the order.
Lord Laird: My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part and for the clarification from the Minister.
Let me just say that I am determined, as are my colleagues, in the view that human rights cannot be diluted. Some people cannot have more human rights than others. Individual human rights are the most important thing. That is how you build society; that is how you build a future; and that is how we want to
build our future in Northern Ireland. You cannot have a situation where there is a different set of human rights for different people. That is the basis on which I moved the amendment.3.7 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 45; Not-Contents, 134.
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