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Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, that takes us back to our youth.
My friend's daughter also learnt how to cook popcorn. She was reprimanded for bringing in real apples to bake an apple pie instead of a tin of pureed apples. We could do rather more in cookery classes and teach how to cook from scratch, as the Americans say.
We in Britain watch more television than people in most other countries of the world. The weather has something to do with that. But many kids are bored by adult TV. We need to provide alternative activities for some of our bored children. Youth clubs, and groups of scouts and guides are all old-fashioned and have gone down the spout. When such facilities are provided, they are attended. Our schools should be open every day until 10.30 in the evening. The kids should be able to use the computers because many of them do not have computers at home. There should be sporting activities so that they can get the exercise that they need. That would be a relatively small step. The facilities are there, but keeping them open requires the will to do so. Kids clubs and organisations such as Kidscape are emerging, but we need far more of them.
We should not rush into being a nanny state. This is a cultural question. I do not want our society to go down the American route of blame and litigation. However, positive steps can be taken to counter the culture that has emerged to try to push it in a different direction. I want the Government to take the lead in such positive steps.
6.6 p.m.
Earl Attlee: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, for introducing this important debate today. The Motion calls attention to the case for limiting the effects of marketing aimed directly at children. We all agree that children require a degree of protection, but views differ as to the extent to which they should be shielded from advertising, marketing and promotional offers.
I fear that I may be a little on my own in this debate, with the notable exceptions of the noble Lord, Lord Gordon of Strathblane, and, possibly, the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp. However, it will be interesting to hear the Minister.
Advertising and marketing are a feature of a free market economy where the consumer is king and where products and services compete to inform the consumer of their existence, and their benefits in contrast to other brands. In today's free market democracy, children and adults are surrounded by commercial messages. The codes governing advertising and marketing in both the broadcast media and the press have specific rules to take account of children's inexperience and credulity. Those codes are essential, and are supported by the public and industry. They are regularly reviewed to ensure that they are kept up to date with technological developments and changes in advertising and marketing practices.
As we have heard, some countries, such as Sweden, do not allow advertising on television to children under 12. However, it is impossible to cocoon children from the commercial world in which we live. Shielding them from a part of those commercial messages will not work. We must also not forget that advertising helps to fund the free press, TV and radio broadcasting, and it can also provide funding and resources when they would otherwise not be available—for sporting events or for schools, for example.
A much better solution is to teach children about the role of advertising and marketing practices, so that they learn about the intent and purposes of commercial messages and how to use them effectively. Educating children to understand the role of marketing is essential to the development of their ability to make critical comparisons and informed decisions, especially later in life. When they become adults, managing far greater financial resources, they will come under even greater pressure. The consequences of believing the contents of every advert offering a financial product could be devastating.
Advertising slots around children's television programmes is currently an issue of some debate. Some argue that advertising should not be allowed around children's TV programmes because children are particularly vulnerable and open to influence. However, there is research which suggests that children understand the difference between advertising and programmes from a very early age and that they grasp the commercial intent of advertising from around five years old. Personally, I am not entirely convinced, and neither are many of your Lordships.
The Food Standards Agency has recently published an analysis by Strathclyde University which concludes that advertising has a significant effect on what children want to eat or drink. But other research concludes that other factors, such as parents and siblings, have a much stronger influence on children than advertising.
Many noble Lords have referred to the problem of carbonated sugar-laden drinks. It is a problem not easily solved by regulation, but I think there is a lot to be said for all schools providing a cold water drinks machine next to a fizzy drinks machine, if the school must have a fizzy drinks machine at all.
The noble Lords, Lord Rea and Lord Gordon of Strathblane, talked about the requirement for exercise. For a variety of reasons, our children do not walk very far. They do not even spend much time outside in fresh air. Not only does this cause overweight and obesity, it may also explain why we are seeing more respiratory illnesses in children. They simply spend too much time indoors, so are exposed to the perils so ably identified by the noble Baroness, Lady Howe—a double whammy if ever there were one.
The noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, talked about the work of the Food Standards Agency. We are lucky indeed to have the benefit of her experience in your Lordships' House. I think there is a problem of educating parents, but the parents most needing it may be the most difficult to contact, let alone influence. How depressing it is for me to see a mother going for a takeaway to feed her family. The noble Lord, Lord Chan, covered this point in detail.
No doubt flexible working in order to support the 24-hour economy is having its impact on family feeding arrangements. This was a point well made by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans gave us a very strong moral perspective. He talked about the provision of TV sets to very young children. The noble Lord, Lord Chan, talked about access to TV and computers. He rightly said that both were seen as childcare tools.
The noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, followed the moral line of the right reverend Prelate. He first asked: what are the responsibilities of parents? He then covered the need for parenting support. The noble Lord made a suggestion about what he called a Kitemark, the symbol of the BSI. But I rather think that parents and children also need to understand the merits of fruit compared with chocolate. This goes right back to the noble Lord's original point.
New primary legislation has been touched on by some noble Lords, notably a Private Member's Bill in another place proposed by Debra Shipley MP. I usually have an allergic reaction to any suggestion of further regulation.
We on these Benches are opposed to the outright banning of advertising and marketing to children. There are strict rules in place to regulate marketing specific to children. We will look at the result of Ofcom's investigation into the current codes, but we suspect that there may not be much room to make them any tougher.
We oppose a ban on advertising for the following reasons. We believe that obesity in children is caused by a number of factors, including an increasingly sedentary lifestyle, parental influence and diet choices. We do not believe that a ban would have the effect that many campaigners claim. However, I am certain that obesity is a major problem. The Chief Medical Officer is rightly extremely concerned about the future impact on the cost to the NHS, a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth. When I put my defence and security hat on, I am worried about the size of the pool of youngsters who will be fit enough to join the Armed Forces, even after extensive training.
Countries such as Sweden have introduced such a ban and, as pointed out by noble Lords, have not seen any significant change in child obesity levels. Without complex regulations, a ban would prevent anyone advertising healthy food, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Chan. I think it is unfortunate that the quality of fresh fruit in the UK leaves a lot to be desired.
It is impossible effectively to define children's television and adult television. For example, "The Simpsons", "Hollyoaks" and "EastEnders"—I am not quite sure what these programmes are—would all be outside a ban on advertising in children's TV time, which is between 3.30 and 5.30 p.m., but all have a very significant children's audience. A ban would have a significant impact on the ability of broadcasters that rely on advertising revenue to offer children's programmes, a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Gordon of Strathblane. Unlike cigarettes, which are harmful even in moderation, we do not believe that food can be so easily classified.
I look forward to the Minister's response to this fascinating debate.
6.15 p.m.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the whole House is grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, for introducing a debate that has been wide-ranging and most thought-provoking. It has covered some very interesting ground, from the narrowest of concerns about consumer behaviour to the real morality of the nature of society that we participate in and whether such consuming activity meets all the needs of our citizens. I hope I am able to join those who brought a perspective to our debate which looks at this issue from a moral standpoint.
I pay due respect to the strong arguments that we need to recognise the nature of the problems which are provided by a young population—youngsters, in particular—who take too little exercise and are subject overmuch to the influence of television and other media through the computer. At the same time, I am afraid that I also agree with a great deal of what my noble friend Lord Gordon said; namely, that we should not look upon advertising as the all-powerful mechanism by which all tastes and consumption patterns are determined in our society, and that a
simple ban—not, I hasten to add, that any ban would be simple—would not be readily effective in changing such patterns.I also want to develop the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, was keen to emphasise. It is not a question of our young people being subject to these influences, but the fact that they are there, static, and responsive to these influences. It may be necessary to pay due regard to their future health problems by seeking to ensure that we have the requisite sport and exercise opportunities, which impact upon a number of departments.
One point to which I am particularly responsive is that raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, when she asked whether I would give some indication of co-ordinated activity on these issues between departments. I hope that in the deployment of my arguments in my short contribution, I will give evidence of the fact that we recognise that these issues go across government departments. We need a perspective which recognises the contributions of a range of government agencies. I hope that I am able to convince the House that the Government are acting in crucial areas in this respect.
As the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, indicated, this country is deservedly regarded as a centre of advertising excellence in terms of quality and observance of high standards and integrity. That is entirely due to the effectiveness of the UK regime for regulating advertising and ensuring compliance with the spirit as well as the letter of regulations and codes of practice.
Apart from statutory controls to protect consumers from misleading advertising, further independent controls are operated to ensure that advertisements are truthful, decent and honest and prepared with a due sense of responsibility to consumers and society. Both UK statutory and non-statutory controls are highly flexible and responsive. A single complaint will trigger action and there is no burden of proof on complainants.
The UK advertising community demonstrates its commitments to high standards by operating its own pre-clearance service—a point the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, referred to in her opening remarks.
We should recognise that the advertising industry is regulated. Reference was made to the efforts of my honourable friend in another place who introduced a 10-minute rule Bill—a Bill more for propaganda purposes than one likely to engage this House in a great deal of activity in the near future. But that Bill was extremely limited. It received considerable support, a recognition that our colleagues in the other place are also aware of the problems that have been rightly and accurately identified in our debate today. That Bill sought to ban the advertising of foods high in sugar, salt and fat during pre-school children's TV programmes. That is how limited its perspective was; that it was aimed at the most impressionable of young children.
I had some sympathy with that Bill. But part of the solution must surely be to give our young people the skills and abilities to identify the hard and the soft sell. That may come through greater support from parents
and the wisdom that they can impart through long years of wrestling with these issues. We must also bear in mind the aspects identified by the right reverend Prelate; that is, that we need to look at our children in a wider perspective than simply as consumers.Schools are concerned to give breadth to young people from the perspective of the broader educational objectives in which this crucial issue of media literacy exists. They want to give children the ability to understand the nature of the messages being sent out through the extremely powerful media which television and computers represent. They want them to have a rounded perspective which will give them the potential to respond to these issues with judgment and an ability to handle the various messages thrown at them.
The only comment I would make to the noble Lord, Lord Addington, who made a powerful speech on the dangers of the present pattern of consumption and the lack of exercise—I appreciate he identified certain food substances as having rather more powerful impact than others—is that there is a wide difference between foodstuffs and tobacco. We all know of the detrimental effects of tobacco.
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