House of Lords
Monday, 12 January 2004.
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of St Albans.
Baroness Hale of Richmond
The Right Honourable Dame Brenda Marjorie Hale, DBE, a Lord Justice of Appeal, having been appointed a Lord of Appeal in Ordinary and created Baroness Hale of Richmond, of Easby in the County of North Yorkshire, for life—Was, in her robes, introduced between the Lord Flowers and the Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve.
Lord Triesman
David Maxim Triesman, Esquire, having been created Baron Triesman, of Tottenham in the London Borough of Haringey, for life—Was, in his robes, introduced between the Baroness Jay of Paddington and the Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean.
Honours System
2.48 p.m.
Lord Dubs asked Her Majesty's Government:
- What will be the extent of the proposed consultation on changes to the honours system.
The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Amos): My Lords, we want to make sure that all those who have a view to express can do so and, in the first instance, anyone who wishes to suggest ways in which the honours system might be improved should write to the Ceremonial Officer at the Cabinet Office.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that Answer. Does she agree that long before the recent media interest in the honours system there had been long-standing concern about its operation? Does she further agree that, in addition to transparency, it would be welcome if there was not a hierarchy of honours under which top people receive top honours and ordinary people receive honours at the lower end of the scale? Would it not be more democratic and in keeping with modern Britain, as it is now, if we had a system which reflected that?
Baroness Amos: My Lords, my noble friend is right. We are always considering ways of improving the system. I am sure that my noble friend will be pleased to know that up to 50 per cent of those on a list are engaged in voluntary service or voluntary work of
some kind. I am sure that the nature of honours and the question of whether there should be a hierarchy of honours will be addressed by the review.
Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, we on these Benches very much welcome the proposed study into the honours system to be undertaken by Sir Hayden Phillips, Permanent Secretary to the Department for Constitutional Affairs, and we hope that a wide range of people will be invited to give evidence to that inquiry. However, in view of the extraordinary story that appeared in yesterday's Sunday Mirror, can the Leader of the House assure us that, in appointing political Peers, the Government will carefully respect the promise made in the White Paper and elsewhere that the share of votes cast at the last general election will be a significant factor in determining how many new Peers are to be appointed and the parties with which they are likely to be associated?
Baroness Amos: My Lords, the noble Baroness will be aware that that issue was raised as part of the recent consultation process. Legislation will come before this House and that matter will be addressed through that process.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, can the Minister tell us whether the consultation briefing will include information about how other countries with honours systems conduct the process and, in particular, what degree of transparency exists in those systems? I think, for example, of Australia.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I am not aware of briefing material which includes information about the systems in other countries, although I am sure that that information is publicly available. However, I shall ensure that the noble Baroness's point is passed on to the relevant part of the Cabinet Office.
Baroness Whitaker: My Lords, will it be borne in mind that, for the purposes of the review, Britain no longer has an empire?
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I believe that we are all well aware of that.
Lord Taverne: My Lords, I declare an interest as president of the Research Defence Society. Can the Minister assure us that there will be no repetition of the extraordinary comment made on the last occasion that honours were awarded? Then, an eminent scientist, who is eminent enough to be head of the MRC, was disqualified because he was controversial, having been attacked by nutcases and terrorists. Will the Minister assure us that the Government's policy for scientists to be more open in their work will not be undermined in future and that, in fact, the views of scientists will be given due consideration?
Baroness Amos: My Lords, the noble Lord will be aware that it is a long-standing tradition that we do not comment on leaks. However, the noble Lord will also
be aware that the assessment committee, which reports to the moderating committee, considers the issue of science. This Government strongly support the role of science and scientists in this country.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: My Lords, is the Leader of the House aware that, although attention is drawn to the very few honours that go to pop stars and sportsmen and women, the vast majority of honours at every level are much appreciated not only by the recipients but also by many others who value the system as it is? It is time to move cautiously.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I believe it is right that the work undertaken by people across the country is honoured. As I said in response to my noble friend Lord Dubs, just under 50 per cent of those honoured are involved in voluntary work. A little over 50 per cent of those on the list are public servants of one kind or another, including doctors, teachers and people working in local government, the police, the fire service and so on.
Health Visitors
2.54 p.m.
Lord Clement-Jones asked Her Majesty's Government:
- What professional protection of the title "health visitor" will exist after 1 April 2004.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Warner): My Lords, when the new register opens later in 2004, the designated titles of the three parts of the new register will be the protected titles. It is anticipated that those will be nurses, midwives and community public health nurses. Public protection will be provided because anyone proposing to work as a health visitor must be registered on the community public health nurse part of the register.
Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. However, despite his assertion and despite successive ministerial assurances, under this Government there has been a continual erosion and devaluation of health visiting as a profession in its own right. Is it not a fact that, in future, people can be described as, or call themselves, "health visitors" without having the current competencies expected of a health visitor?
Lord Warner: My Lords, as I indicated in my reply, the public will be protected by health visitors meeting the competency requirements of the Nursing and Midwifery Council and those requirements will be placed on the third part of the register. The Government have done nothing other than encourage people to enter health visiting and we support the work of health visitors.
Earl Howe: My Lords, is it not right, however, that the third part of the register will include a number of disciplines, including that of health visitors? Is not the key point in this context that an employer should be in a position to know whether an individual who applies for a job as a health visitor has attained the required level of competence? Therefore, what steps are being taken to ensure that that can happen?
Lord Warner: My Lords, it is for the Nursing and Midwifery Council to identify the competence of people who are placed on the register. It is for someone who employs a person as, say, a health visitor, to establish that that person has the qualifications which he says he has and to ensure that he is competent to fill the advertised post. Nothing in these changes puts the public at risk in either of those dimensions. However, I can assure the noble Earl that I understand that, in future, the Nursing and Midwifery Council is proposing to identify separately existing health visitors and those who complete an approved health-visiting course leading to registration by an annotation on the register. I shall certainly ask my officials to work with the Nursing and Midwifery Council.
Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, is the issue of competencies related to the fact that, under the current proposals, specialist community public health nurses will not require competencies in the following areas: children, child development, parents, families, social well-being, positive health and resiliency factors? On the register, those competencies will not be required. How can that possibly protect the public?
Lord Warner: My Lords, I cannot go into detail on that issue, but I believe that the noble Lord knows that the Nursing and Midwifery Council has undertaken a comprehensive consultation exercise both on the parts of the register and on the competencies to be obtained by those to be registered. As I understand it, that consultation is nearly complete and I expect to hear the outcome from the Nursing and Midwifery Council in the future. However, although we gave our comments to the Nursing and Midwifery Council, it is not for the Government to intervene in that process.
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