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Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Judd for what he said. He asked whether I would accept his remarks, which were made without reservation. Of course I accept them very warmly. I thank the noble Lord very much for reminding us of the very important role that officials play in such negotiations. Often, Ministers stand at the Dispatch Box and take the brickbats or the credits. On this occasion, officials have played an enormously important role, and their expertise is invaluable.
The noble Lord made the point that Israel was a crucial case. I acknowledge that, but I say to him that all cases are crucial. I am sure that, in his turn, he will acknowledge that, too. It takes only one country to resort to the use of weapons of mass destruction, whatever those weapons are, for there to be a truly appalling position for us internationally. Of course, the Middle East is a particularly volatile part of the world, and a resort to any of these terrible weapons would be truly devastating.
The noble Lord asked what we are doing to reduce our arsenals. I do not think that this Government have a bad tale to tell over that. We put the freefall bomb out of commission when we came into power; we have substantially reduced our nuclear warheads, as I am sure the noble Lord will know. I am sure he will also know and acknowledge that the United Kingdom Government pursue vigorously all international opportunities for non-proliferation, for looking at ways in which we can reduce fissile material around the world, and to encouraging others, perhaps who have not been quite as enthusiastic as we have in signing up to the international treaties, to do so.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, will the noble Baroness accept my congratulations to the Government and to the United States Administration on the very skilful way in which they have brought about a remarkable step forward? Does she agree that this shows that persistence with international work, through international machinery, can pay off, as it has done in the case of Libya?
The decision to go to the Security Council in 1992 has led on to a sequence of improvements in the behaviour of that regime. Although I share some of the doubts of the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, about the permanence of Colonel Gaddafi's conversion, I still think we have to recognise that concerted international pressure has brought positive results. Has the Minister become aware of a reported comment by a member of the US Administration, that he could not understand why Dr El Baradei the director general of the IAEA, had recently been to Libya, following the declaration of Colonel Gaddafi, since El Baradei knew next to nothing about the Libyan nuclear programme?
Does the Minister agree that it is important that all governments represented on the governing board of the IAEA, which of course includes the United States and the United Kingdom, should pass to the director general any information they may have about the failure by NPT signatories to fulfil their obligations? Will she say a little more about the role that the Government see for the IAEA and the OPCW in the future verification of the commitments that President Gaddafi has recently entered into?
I welcome what the noble Baroness said in her original Statement, or rather the Foreign Secretary's Statement, but it would be good to hear a little more to be quite sure that the verification of these very important statements that Colonel Gaddafi has made will be put fair and square in the hands of international bodies that can be accepted on a continuing basis by the Libyan regime.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hannay of Chiswick, for his welcome for this Statement. We are all bound to have a degree of caution in looking ahead over the next few months. It is important to be very hard-headed about this whole process of implementation and monitoring, and that of course is why we welcomed the visit that Dr El Baradei made to Libya. He took with him a team from the IAEA.
I did not see the remarks to which the noble Lord refers, and I try not to comment too much on reported remarks that I have not seen. Dr El Baradei has considerable expertise in atomic energy and he works with a team of experts in the IAEA. As the noble Lord, Lord Hannay of Chiswick, pointed out, he also works with a team on the board of governors who have expertise from around various countries in the world, and they will receive a report. The noble Lord asked about the next step. A report will go to the IAEA governing board in March this year.
The noble Lord asked me to say a little more about what is happening. At the moment, the process that has begun has four areas where Libya will be making some advances over the next few months. There is nuclear capability; chemical capability; and there is the question of biological capabilities, because Libya admitted to past intentions to acquire capabilities related to biological weapons as well. The noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, referred to the important point about the means of delivery. There is also the question of missile development in Libya as well. So there are four avenues to be pursued over the next few months as far as Libya's declarations are concerned.
Lord Blaker: My Lords, I too congratulate Her Majesty's Government on the part that they played in the negotiations with Libya that led to Libya changing its posture on nuclear weapons and created the prospect that Libya would also change its posture on the other types of weapons of mass destruction to which the noble Baroness referred. To what extent does the noble Baroness believe that the dramatic change made by Mr Gaddafi was influenced by the successful war conducted by the coalition against Iraq and by the capture of Saddam Hussein?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Blaker, for what he has said. What we have seen recently has indeed been dramatic, but it has been the dramatic part of a process that has gone on for five years. In answering the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, I stressed that we had made advances in our efforts to get Libya more aligned with its international neighbours on the question of Lockerbie, in the first place, and on the question of WPC Fletcher. There have also been some interesting changes in the ways in which we have dealt with cultural issues relating to Libya, with transport issues and—significantly, I would say as a former Minister for Trade—with their repayment of debt to the Export Credits Guarantee Department.
The noble Lord asked whether the decision was influenced by the war with Iraq. It would be difficult to single out an issue and say that it was the turning point in the mind of Colonel Gaddafi that made him decide that he needed, at this point, to reveal the extent of his weapons programmes and move towards normalising his international relationships. Who can say that part of the pressure on Colonel Gaddafi was not due to seeing what happened in Iraq, but there may also have been a realisation that there was far more mileage in normalising relationships, getting better trading relationships and increasing the prosperity of his country by normalising commercial transactions with other countries. I suspect that all those issues played their part. I do not discount what happened in Iraq. What we have seen is enormously welcome, and I hope that others, having seen what has happened, will feel moved to enter into the same sort of negotiations.
Lord Howe of Aberavon: My Lords, far be it from me to adjudicate in the debate between my noble friend and the noble Baroness about the cause of the act of
repentance. Lawyers spend years arguing about the difference between the causa causans and the causa sine qua non. I am probably not allowed to use such language in the House.The original tragic killing of WPC Yvonne Fletcher took place during my early months at the Foreign Office, and not long after that came the attack on the American nightclub in Berlin, which led us to take action that was necessary at the time. I join other noble Lords in warmly welcoming the Statement made by the Minister, and I endorse the tributes paid to the tenacity, patience and robust pressure shown over a long time during the process. Like the noble Lord, Lord Judd, I pay tribute to the part played by Ministers and officials.
May I be mildly mischievous and ask the noble Baroness whether she agrees that we should also pay tribute to the value of secrecy in diplomacy? It is probable that such an achievement would not have been possible had it not been for the extreme confidentiality with which the professionals conducted the negotiations over a long period. We should let the world know that secret diplomacy still has a part to play in helping us achieve the kind of world in which we want to live.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I agree so much with what the noble and learned Lord has just said. The question of how we put information into the public arena, on the one hand, while having negotiations that are worth having, on the other, is one of the great dilemmas of modern political life and one that we have not resolved. The noble and learned Lord has opened up an enormously important area of discussion. I wish it was one to which we devoted more time. Perhaps I may say that I wish it was one in which we could have a better discussion with some parts of the media. It is crucially important that where we are able to take forward that type of negotiation we are allowed to do so. I understand why there is a great demand for information. In a free and open democracy, there will be many who want to see that kind of information put into the public arena. I agree with the noble and learned Lord that it is enormously important we also recognise that sometimes secrecy is absolutely invaluable in getting to this type of position.
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