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Lord Grenfell: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. However, does he accept that I stand by everything that he has read out? He quoted from the committee's report. I do not dispute those quotations. However, the noble Lord puts the weights on to one side of the balance. If he also quoted those parts of the draft treaty where there is a very definite shift towards the member states in terms of greater authority being given to national parliaments and the Council—I dispute what the noble Lord said about the Council—he would see that we were not wrong in saying that the shift is towards the member states.
Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, we may have to differ on that. The noble Lord always has been passionate about balance. The report is balanced but when you take the sentence that I mentioned out of context—as the Government have had no scruples in doing—the balance is destroyed. That is what happens if one does not keep these sentences carefully locked up and one allows them to run around without a lead.
The debate moved on to the central question of the significance of the shift of power the other way—to the European institutions. That is a key matter in terms of the Government's argument. My noble friend Lord Waddington made an unanswerable case that although Community law always had superior authority from 1972 onwards, it is now embodied in a constitutional document which is not just another treaty. It is a legal writ, a legal form. What is written down in it carries powers and will be judged in the courts. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, that many of these points were in the Maastricht Treaty and other treaties, but never before have they been enshrined and embedded in a higher law—in a constitution. That is why the case is unanswerable for having a referendum; it is not just a parliamentary matter. That is why we want a referendum. On that there was a deathly silence from the Liberal Democrats.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way so that I can inject another moment of Liberal Democrat intervention. I shall do so briefly, because he is near the end of his speech. The reality is that nothing in the document suggests that it is in any way different in kind from the previous constitutional treaties of Maastricht, Amsterdam, Nice and so forth. Nothing declares that the document is superior in a different way from earlier treaties that have been the foundation of the rule book for the European Union.
Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, as the late Ernest Bevin was fond of saying, "I've heard different". In our view, the document is constitutional. It enshrines such matters; they become justiciable in
the European Court of Justice, which becomes a higher court. I must move on, because the debate has been very full.The defence issues, which were not looked at very deeply in the European Union Committee's report, were raised by the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont. They have been raised by the neutrals in recent days, who have reminded us that they are not prepared to go along with mutual defence pacts or clauses that automatically and inevitably incorporate them in defence of the Union not by willing decision—many neutral-country soldiers are involved in present operations—but by law. The committee expressed the hope that no operational EU command structure would emerge, and urged that it should not be encouraged in paragraph 284, which quotes a witness as saying that,
- "none of these structures pretends to provide an operational EU military command structure either at the strategic or the tactical levels. There are no standing EU headquarters . . . Any such EU operational command structure would duplicate existing NATO and national assets".
I was glad that my noble friend Lord Hurd, in a very distinguished speech, spoke about the smaller countries. That is an enormously important issue. I favour another vision, that of a more equal Europe, yet it seems to be a vision fading in the welter of arguments about the weighting of votes, a Commission that excludes the smaller countries, a president who may perpetuate differences if he is the wrong president at the wrong time, a stability pact that apparently applies to only the small fry and not the big boys, being told to shut up over Iraq, and a general sense of domination by the bigger powers in a Union that is supposed to be one of equal countries. The UK should be far more vigorous in championing the smaller nations, as my noble friend Lady Park of Monmouth rightly suggested.
I shall mention the issue that apparently worries the Prime Minister now; namely, that if he sticks to the red lines on tax, defence, foreign affairs and energy—let us hear a little more about that this evening—he will somehow get out of line with the French and the Germans, and that a two-speed Europe will develop. That appears to be his worry according to this morning's newspapers. It is not my worry. If there are to be two speeds, the fast lane will run round the edge of the European Union. It will be Poland, Estonia, Scandinavia, the United Kingdom, Portugal and Italy. That will be the peripherique on which wise statesmen and policy makers will keep their national vehicles. It is the slow centre that will move forward, as it is perfectly entitled to do, in a more ponderous way.
We should bend our efforts to support and bring out that newer Europe and reject the antique and backward-looking constitution project, which is bad
for us and bad for Europe. According to the Foreign Secretary, it is now anyway not apparently necessary. Going back to Gisela Stuart for a moment, I should say that she tells us that when she puts "Giscard" into her laptop computer, it insists on printing out "discard". There may be a lesson for us all in that.In that marvellous speech at the beginning, my noble friend Lord Forsyth rather brutally compared Ministers to Humpty Dumpty and the unhappy events that he encountered. I read this morning that, given good counselling, proper medical technology and sensible treatment, it would have been possible to save Humpty Dumpty and put him together again. That is indeed the treatment that we now offer. Rejection of our offer will be greatly regretted. It will leave not just Ministers, but higher and more valuable issues such as European unity itself in pieces on the ground, instead of being put together again.
7.6 p.m.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, for initiating the debate and getting us off to such a very energetic start. It has been described as lively by the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, and even fierce by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe. It has certainly prompted quite a number of contributions that have been as different in their content as in their presentation, and the debate has been wide-ranging, so I shall do my best to answer as many of the points and arguments as I can. There has been good Scots participation, as the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said, but perhaps I can do my bit to boost the Welsh side.
Today marks the 12th occasion since May that Members of this House or another place have had the opportunity to debate the draft treaty. Ministers have appeared eight times before different parliamentary committees. The sittings of the Standing Committee on the IGC have given a full opportunity to Members of both Houses to question Ministers on the progress of negotiations. In addition, the Government have responded to 16 reports of committees of both Houses, most lately to the full and comprehensive report of the European Union Committee at the end of October, following the contribution of the Constitution Committee.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Williamson of Horton, for his measured reflections on the opportunities that we have had for those debates. I say very gently to the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, that the Government initiated a debate on 9th September, in very good time for the IGC. It was remarked on at the time, and it lasted some eight hours. We have also produced what I hope that noble Lords can agree have been full and speedy responses to all the reports, showing the importance that we attach to the work of the European Union Committee and the contribution of the parliamentary committees towards informing our stance on the negotiations.
As the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart, said on 20th November:
- "My Lords, is it not almost unprecedented to have repeated sittings of joint committees of the two Houses during IGCs? The Government have introduced that novel procedure, which is welcome".—[Official Report, 20/11/03; col. 2049.]
I was a little sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, chose to call into question my sincerity in saying that analysis of the draft would be forthcoming. Another Member of the Opposition was a little more courteous in putting the same point. I gave that undertaking, and analysis will be forthcoming once the final draft is ready. It is still under negotiations, as the noble Lord, Lord Hurd of Westwell, was kind and fair enough to acknowledge. It is not really possible to give a day-by-day account of negotiation. The process of trying to reach agreement is an arduous and complex one in which my friends in another place have been very heavily engaged.
I turn to the prospects for the IGC. Many of your Lordships have been quite stern in urging the Government not to risk agreement if that agreement would go against our national interests. The Italian presidency plans to conclude the intergovernmental conference negotiations on the draft EU constitutional treaty at this European Council. The Government support the aim of concluding the IGC in December this year rather than continuing into the Irish presidency. However, I assure your Lordships—I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Park, in particular, will take note of this—that we shall support that aim only if we see our fundamental concerns properly addressed in a final package.
As my noble friend Lord Radice made clear, our concerns include our insistence that unanimity should remain in areas of vital national interest, such as taxation, social security, defence, key areas of criminal procedural law and the system of own resources. The Government set out their position on those issues very clearly in the White Paper.
The Government are satisfied with progress in the IGC so far. Recent discussions—most lately at the IGC of 8th December—were based on a paper circulated by the presidency. It contained a series of proposals for amendments to the draft EU constitutional treaty drawn up by the Convention on the Future of Europe. Unfortunately, they did not
meet all our concerns, and I wish to be clear on that point. However, we are considering revised proposals which are being tabled.I remind the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, that there has been no formal agreement on any single point of the draft treaty. That is for heads of state or governments by common accord at the European Council. The Government will only sign up to a treaty that serves this country's interests—a point upon which the noble Lord, Lord Howell, laid great emphasis. It was a point also emphasised in the very well argued contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Lang, and of course by the noble Baroness, Lady Park of Monmouth.
I listened very carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, said on that point. I concur with his assertion that we do not have to reach an agreement this weekend. We should not reach a bad compromise which we shall live to regret. The noble Lord was right. I shall draw his remarks and those of other noble Lords who have been very forceful on this point to the attention of my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary.
However, I remind the noble Lord, Lord Vinson, that, as we said in the White Paper, if a new treaty cannot be agreed or ratified, the EU would continue under its current arrangements. It would have the same functions as it has today. It would not collapse. But the failure to reform would, indeed, undermine the existing institutional balance within the EU, and it is that which we seek to address.
I assure noble Lords that we shall continue our dialogue with Parliament. That is very important. Tomorrow, the Foreign Secretary will go before the Foreign Affairs Committee. Following the European Council, on 17th December the Minister for Europe will appear before the European Scrutiny Committee, and next month he intends to accept an invitation from the Lords EU Select Committee.
The noble Lords, Lord Forsyth, Lord Waddington and Lord Vinson, and many others spoke about their desire for a referendum on this subject. As is the custom in this country, the Government intend that the treaty should be ratified through the parliamentary process and that Parliament should have the opportunity to scrutinise the treaty in full. That was the way in which this Government dealt with the Treaty of Nice; it was the way in which we dealt with the Treaty of Amsterdam; and, indeed, it was the way in which the Conservative government dealt with the Single European Act and the Treaty of Maastricht.
Again, I believe that the Opposition have fallen into the trap of telling the Government, "Don't do as we did when we were in power. Do as we tell you now". They have attempted to make this somewhat opportunistic argument respectable by cloaking it as a claim that the treaty represents a fundamental change in constitutional terms. Perhaps inevitably in addressing a debate where opinions are so strongly held, those contributing tend to stress the overwhelmingly persuasive nature of their own
argument and the inadequacy of that of their opponents. The Opposition claim that the new treaty is a fundamental shift in the constitutional position; others claim that the treaty contains nothing new. The truth, as is so often the case, lies somewhere in between and is probably a great deal more prosaic.
A constitutional treaty for the EU would consolidate what already exists and what has already been agreed. In that respect, the consolidation does not in and of itself change the constitutional relationship between members and the EU. It brings together a plethora of measures. It makes them more easily understood and more accessible to individuals. That must be welcomed, as I believe the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, welcomed it. However, in addition, there are new elements, such as the early-warning mechanism for national parliaments. For the first time, we have a draft treaty which makes clear that any powers not conferred upon the Union by member states remain with them. However, that does not amount to a fundamental and significant change in the relationship between the EU and member states. That is my view.
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