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Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I have some sympathy with what Mr Muis said in his interview. Indeed, he said what the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, alleged. That is true in a great number of large organisations. The means of dealing with that is not to attack the individuals concerned, but to put in proper controls. That is exactly what Commissioner Kinnock, Commissioner Schreyer and the Commission generally have been doing.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords—
Lord Grocott: My Lords, it is time for the next Question and two interventions are probably above par for the course.
International Arms Trade
3.10 p.m.
The Lord Bishop of Salisbury asked Her Majesty's Government:
- Whether the international arms trade would be most effectively regulated through multilateral means.
Baroness Crawley: My Lords, there is already substantial multilateral work to regulate the trade in arms and other strategic goods, most notably the EU Code of Conduct on Arms Exports, for which the Government were a driving force. There is also a variety of other multilateral regimes that work to strengthen international strategic export controls. The UK is an active and constructive member of all the key regimes and appreciates their importance in raising international standards in export controls.
The Lord Bishop of Salisbury: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Does she agree that, after the passage of the Export Control Act 2002, the secondary legislation which followed it and the pledge given at the last general election to control British arms brokers "wherever they are located" will be unmet because a broker will still be able to transact a deal that is illegal in the United Kingdom simply by crossing the Channel? Will the Government therefore continue to throw their weight behind the drive to obtain an absolutely comprehensive international arms trade treaty?
Baroness Crawley: My Lords, in answer to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Salisbury, I believe that the secondary legislation to which he refers that is to come into operation on 1st May 2004 will tighten up on brokerage as regards the control regime for arms exports. We are confident that that will happen. Indeed, we have been a driving force in ensuring that it works across the European Union as well.
The right reverend Prelate asked whether we agree with the work that has been done by Amnesty International and Oxfam on the arms trade treaty. The Government fully support the aim of raising global export control standards. As noble Lords will know, the UK operates some of the most vigorous export control policies in the world and actively works to encourage other states to apply similar principles. We support in principle any measures that will bring the practices of other arms exporters into line with our own.
Baroness Northover: My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree with the recent UN reports on the Democratic Republic of Congo that foreign companies there are fuelling conflict with the rapid spread of small arms? Should not the UK Government take action to investigate properly the British companies listed in the UN report and not simply, as happened yesterday, announce aid for the area?
Baroness Crawley: My Lords, as for the position in the DRC, I shall be happy to reply more fully to the noble Baroness in writing. As I recall, we have asked for evidence of the perpetrations by companies to which she referred. So far, that evidence has not been forthcoming.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, reverting to the Question and without any criticism of Her Majesty's Government on this affair, whose words and aspirations are totally laudable, multinational control
of the arms trade is just a nonsense. Let us consider, for example, the exocets which did so much damage to that ship in the Falklands. Is it not quite ridiculous to pretend that we can ever achieve a multinational agreement?
Baroness Crawley: My Lords, the view taken is that the more multinational control there is, the safer and more accountable would be arms export regimes around the world. That is very much the view taken by the NGOs. However, I agree to some extent with the last point made by the noble Lord, that it is unlikely that that will happen in the near future. None the less, we must strive towards that aim because of the importance placed on strategic export controls in countries' national foreign policies. That is why there is something in the last point made by the noble Lord.
Lord Hylton: My Lords, can the noble Baroness tell the House what proportion of the very large number of bad debts within the Export Credits Guarantee Department are attributable to British arms exports? Does that not indicate that we need much stronger home controls?
Baroness Crawley: My Lords, on the specific issue of bad debt and how that refers to our own regime, perhaps I may write to the noble Lord. I do not have the detailed answer. However, I reiterate the point I made in my first response to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Salisbury. Britain has one of the strictest and most transparent arms export licensing systems of any country. Noble Lords may recall that when we came into government in 1997, we banned all torture equipment. That was the first time that such a ban was ever brought into force.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, the noble Baroness said that we have not received any evidence about the allegations made against British companies operating in the DRC connected with the illegal exploitation of resources and hence the illegal flow of arms in that country. Does she realise that, on 19th November, the UN Security Council passed a resolution requiring those states whose companies were named in the expert panel report to conduct their own investigations, not simply to wait until evidence is presented to them?
Baroness Crawley: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that information. What I sought to make clear in my earlier response is that we need to see evidence which backs up those allegations, as well as the naming of the companies.
Planning and Compulsory Purchase Bill
3.17 p.m.
Brought from the Commons; read a first time, and ordered to be printed.
Air Traffic Emissions Reduction Bill [HL]
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to provide for the preparation and implementation of the integrated air transport plan to reduce air traffic emissions. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.—(Lord Beaumont of Whitley.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and ordered to be printed.
Business of the House: Debate this Day
The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Amos): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the debate on the Motion in the name of the Lord Forsyth of Drumlean set down for today shall be limited to five hours.—(Baroness Amos.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Hybrid Instruments
Personal Bills
Standing Orders (Private Bills)
Tax Law Rewrite Bills
Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology (POST)
Parliamentary Broadcasting Unit Limited (PARBUL)
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara): My Lords, I beg to move en bloc the six Motions standing in my name on the Order Paper. Hybrid Instruments
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider hybrid instruments and that, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following Lords together with the Chairman of Committees be named of the committee: L. Campbell of Alloway, V. Craigavon, B. Fookes, L. Harrison, L. Luke, L. Sandberg, B. Wilkins.—(The Chairman of Committees.)
Personal BillsMoved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider Personal Bills and that, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following Lords together with the Chairman of Committees be named of the committee:
V. Allenby of Megiddo, L. Faulkner of Worcester, L. Geddes, L. Slynn of Hadley, L. Templeman, B. Thomas of Walliswood.—(The Chairman of Committees.) Standing Orders (Private Bills)
Moved, That a Select Committee on the Standing Orders relating to private Bills be appointed and that, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following Lords together with the Chairman of Committees be named of the committee:
L. Brett, L. Geddes, B. Gould of Potternewton, L. Greaves, L. Luke, L. Naseby, E. Sandwich.—(The Chairman of Committees.)
On Question, Motion agreed to. Tax Law Rewrite Bills
Moved, That a Select Committee of six Lords be appointed to join with the committee appointed by the Commons to consider tax law rewrite Bills, and in particular to consider whether each Bill committed to it preserves the effect of the existing law, subject to any minor changes which may be desirable;
That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following Lords be named of the committee:
L. Blackwell, L. Brightman, B. Cohen of Pimlico, L. Goodhart, L. Haskel, L. Howe of Aberavon;
That the committee have power to agree with the Commons in the appointment of a chairman;
That the quorum of the committee shall be two;
That the committee have leave to report from time to time;
That the committee have power to appoint specialist advisers;
That the minutes of evidence taken before the committee from time to time shall, if the committee think fit, be printed;
That the procedure of the Joint Committee shall follow the procedure of Select Committees of the House of Commons when such procedure differs from that of Select Committees of this House, and shall include the power of the chairman to select amendments.—(The Chairman of Committees.)
On Question, Motion agreed to; and a message was ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith. Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology (POST)
Moved, That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following Lords be appointed to serve as members of the Board of the Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology (POST):
E. Erroll, L. Flowers, L. Oxburgh, L. Winston. Parliamentary Broadcasting Unit Limited (PARBUL)
Moved, That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following Lords be named as members of the Parliamentary Broadcasting Unit Limited (PARBUL):
L. Brabazon of Tara, L. Burnham, L. Paul, L. Thomson of Monifieth.—(The Chairman of Committees.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
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