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Lord Monson: My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Roper, pointed out, there is never any ping-pong between the two Houses in September or early October. That does not start until the end of October or the beginning of November at the earliest, so the "ping-pong" argument is not valid. However, I shall put a question to the noble Baroness that arises from the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Jopling. Is it not the case that her proposals would mean that we shall sit for one more week between the beginning of July and the end of the Session than was the case two or three years ago? If I am right in that assumption, is the extra week designed to make up for the week's break in February, which I do not believe many people asked for, and if so, is the February break guaranteed or will it be pared down, as happened this year?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for being kind enough to table the Motion and giving us the opportunity to vote on it in a free vote. It is an important matter.
I shall vote against the Motion. It seems to have been an unpopular move among Members, staff, Hansard writers and contractors, as was pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Ampthill, who said that contractors have to wrap everything up for two weeks, put it back again for two further weeks and wrap it all up again after that. That is an absurd waste of time.
The argument that we have to come here "to hold the executive to account", as the noble Lord, Lord Carter, put it, is a specious one. We do not hold the Government to account at all. If they can get rid of the 600 year-old office of Lord Chancellor without hearing a bleat, we are not holding them to account very well. That is a specious argument. I hope that we will carry on as we carried on before, because people knew where they were. After all, staff as well as Peers are greatly inconvenienced by the September sitting, as are contractors.
Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, I shall make a very brief point that has not been made so far. If we sit until the end of July and resume at the beginning of October, our recess will correspond with that of the Appellate Committee, so there will be a small saving there.
Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords, it has not been mentioned that many, if not most, noble Lords take part in public life in various ways in their own locality and across the nation when they are not in this House. Most voluntary organisations and businesses, having had a holiday in August, wake up in September. If we cannot go to the meetings of the organisations with which we are involved in September, that is a great pity, because we will bring less to this House than we otherwise would. The public's perception of this House was spoken about. They understand the difference between this House and another place. I shall vote against the Motion.
Baroness Northover: My Lords, I had not planned to speak on the issue, but I feel obliged to make a contribution from another direction. If one has school-age children, as I do, one is likely to want to break earlier in the summer, preferably in mid-July rather than, as proposed, on 22nd July. Staff may well be in the same situation. If one does not have school-age children, one will probably not want to break early. I recognise that few here have young children and I realise that it is lot to ask of my fellow Peers to experience inconvenience on our behalf. However, we have to carry out much of the same work as the House of Commons. Many of us here are working Peers and we have children to consider as well. I hope that after Christmas, when our number is, as I hear, to be expanded, we will have more working Peers. I know that our age profile is different from that of the House of Commons and that is reflected in the way in which the issue is being addressed. I hope that noble Lords will consider the situation of those of us who have school-age children.
Lord Barnett: My Lords, I came into the House with a fairly open mind until I heard some of the speeches. I appreciate that there will be some extra cost, but we should decide issues such as this on the basis of what is right, not on the comparatively slender basis of extra cost and inconvenience. My noble friend Lord Carter made an important point. The perception of people outside this House is not unimportant and it should not be to your Lordships. How will they perceive a break of some 11 weeks? That is a far longer break than that of any people outside your Lordships' House. We should recognise that the public will feel we do not care too much about what we should be debating throughout the year. Having heard the argument about perception, I shall vote with my noble friend.
Lord Colwyn: My Lords, with the permission of the House and that of my noble friend Lady Fookes, whom I congratulate on taking over as Chairman of the Refreshment Committee, I shall make two points on behalf of that department. Noble Lords will be aware that we started a major programme of refurbishment this summer. Plans were made, owing to that work, to provide alternative refreshment facilities. In fact, they were not needed, because the contractors worked ahead of time and everything was in order when we came back in September. When we rise next July, phase 2 of the work will start, subject to financial agreement. It will involve extensive refurbishment of the kitchen areas.
Although the contractors plan to have the work finished by September, it may not be finished by then. It is possible that, if we came back in September, we would find that refreshment facilities were very limited. It is, however, planned that things will be back to normal in October. That point ought to be borne in mind.
In 2005, there will be no facilities at all. We will have temporary kitchens right through from July until the end of the year.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken. I shall seek to address the points that have been made. I repeat what I said in my introduction: this is a House matter, which is why I brought the Motion to the House today.
Parliament will sit in September next year, regardless of whether the House of Lords chooses to sit. The other place has already announced its dates, and it will sit. That brings me to my third point, which relates to that made by my noble friend Lord Carter. Over the past few years, we have sought to improve the perception and reputation of the House. Part of the way in which we sought to do that was to bring ourselves closer into step with the other place. I recognise that it is an issue of personal convenience for many noble Lords, but, if the other place sits for a long period during which we do not, the perception of this House will be damaged.
Several noble Lords raised the issue of cost. No figure can be given. Work contracts differ according to the time available. It is more expensive to sit in September, but, as I understand it, the difference is marginal, rather than decisive. It has been brought to my attention that, as the other place will sit in September, contractors will not, in any event, be able to do major work in the House of Lords, because of the noise. That is the advice that I have been given by the Clerk of the Parliaments and the administration of the House.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: My Lords, I apologise for interrupting the noble Baroness. My understanding was that we knew that sitting last September had created identifiable costs of over £200,000, as well as considerable unidentifiable costs on top of that. Is that what the noble Baroness describes as "marginal"?
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I have been advised that no figure can be given.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, says that that is shameful. For several reasons, I do not consider that that is shameful for the staff who work on the accounts of the House. As I said, the work contracts for different parts of the work in the House differ according to the time available.
We must consider what the cost would have been, if the House had been recalled in September. Also, we must consider what parts of any major contract could not be undertaken in the House of Lords, if the House of Commons sat in September, even if this House were not sitting. There are so many imponderables that, although it was possible for the authorities to say that it would be more expensive, they were unable to put a definitive figure on it. That is neither unreasonable nor, as the noble Baroness said from a sitting position, shameful.
Lord Marlesford: My Lords, the noble Baroness says that no figure can be given. That is her judgment. However, am I correct in thinking that an estimate was made and was passed to the Government? If that is the case, can the noble Baroness at least tell us what it is?
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I have not been given a cost. If I had been, I would have given it to the House. I am giving the House the advice that I have been given by the House authorities.
I remind your Lordships that we have undertaken to review our working practices after two years. I recognise that, with respect to September sittings, we made a decision for one year only, but I feel that we should have a complete review of working practices after two years, including the issue of September sittings.
Is an additional week somehow being lost? Noble Lords will recall that, this year, we had only two weeks' break for the party conferences. The proposal for next year is to have a three-week break, which is why the date chosen is 22nd July, rather than one week earlier. I reiterate: we are not losing a week in the year. As I said, it is a straight swap of seven sitting days for seven sitting days.
I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, that it is important that we consider the needs of parents and, I would also say, grandparents. However, it is a matter for the House.
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