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Lord Monson: My Lords, before the noble Earl sits down, perhaps I may raise one point. He said that his ancestry does not entitle him to boss anyone about. That is quite right, but no one in this House—be they an hereditary or a life Peer—bosses anyone about. Nothing proposed in this House gets anywhere unless the elected Chamber subsequently agrees to it, which is as it should be.
The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, I used the expression "bossing about" in a slightly flippant way. I am sorry that it floated gently over the head of the noble Lord, Lord Monson.
8.8 p.m.
Lord Monro of Langholm: My Lords, it is not often that we get a chance to talk about Scotland in this Chamber, which will be my main point, but I should first like to say how strongly I support my noble friend Lord Strathclyde in his remarks and the amendment that he has tabled to the gracious Speech.
Trust is an important word in British politics and it is sad that the Government have broken their promise and trust to this House. That deserves all the criticism that it will receive later, when the Bill is debated here. The gracious Speech contains a Scottish Bill to maintain the number of Members of the Scottish Parliament in Hollywood.
However, I want first to ask the Government where they now stand on the West Lothian question. Whatever the Bill or the Boundary Commission do, the West Lothian question will not go away. As
everyone knows, that was highlighted recently by the vote in another place, which the Government survived with the votes of Scottish Westminster MPs. It is ridiculous that we have a Minister for Health from Scotland who cannot vote on Scottish health but is responsible for health here in England.When the Scottish Westminster MPs are reduced to 59, the West Lothian question will remain. What will happen about those 59 MPs voting on English legislation at Westminster? The Government trumpet democracy and transparency, but seem to have no answer about what to do about the West Lothian question. Our Scottish Conservative MP does not vote on English legislation.
Returning to the Scottish Bill and the Scotland Act 1998, it was absolutely clear in the Commons and the Lords that when the MPs were reduced to 59, the number of MSPs would be reduced automatically to 109—or to a figure decided by the Boundary Commission. However, we must first make clear the position and timing of Westminster constituencies. At a Speaker's Conference in 1944—not under the Act of Union, as many people think—it was agreed that Scotland would have a minimum of 71 MPs. The figure is now 73. Under the Scotland Act, the Boundary Commissioners now propose 59 MPs; the commission will report between 2002 and 2006.
The Boundary Commission has virtually completed its work: it has held its inquiries, is listening to appeals and will report soon. If we accept that the next general election will be in the spring or summer of 2005, what is the latest cut-off date for the establishment of the new constituencies, voters rolls and other administrative adjustments? Will it be the summer or autumn of 2004 or when? The country of Scotland is entitled to know how the Government will handle the Boundary Commission report and when they will implement it. I hope that the Government do not hide behind the excuse that they cannot do anything until the commission reports. They must make preparatory arrangements now.
Many of us remember that in the 1970s, the then Labour government laid reports, dillied, dallied and then voted against them. I do not want that to happen again. It is perfectly obvious that the Government are dragging their feet and hoping that they can get away with leaving the decision until after the 2005 election. I hope that the Government will this evening clear up what they intend to do.
The Bill, when it arrives before Parliament, will not be so urgent, because the next election for Holyrood Members of Parliament in Scotland is not due until 2007—for Holyrood if the building is completed by then. The Scotland Act made it absolutely clear that when the number of Westminster MPs was reduced, so would be the number of Members of the Scottish Parliament. Mr Donald Dewar, Mr McLeish and the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, in this Chamber, made it abundantly clear to all and sundry—even arguing against amendments tabled to the contrary—that they would automatically reduce the number of Scottish Members of Parliament at Holyrood when the Boundary Commissioners completed its work here.
I know that they may have had some consultations, but why has there been a complete U-turn, with the Government now intending to keep all 129 MSPs in Edinburgh? We will then have new constituencies for Scottish MPs; Westminster constituencies; local government constituencies; European Union constituencies. All together, it will be an absolute shambles for anyone in Scotland to know in which constituency, for what and when they will vote. The Government are being very unfair to Scotland by how they are handling that constitutional issue.
Why are they doing that? One could hardly say that Members of the Scottish Parliament are grossly overworked at present. They do not sit on Mondays or Fridays and their constituencies are smaller than those in Bavaria, Quebec, Catalonia and other areas. They have 28 Ministers, when other governments did the job with five.
When the Government took the legislation through Westminster, they said that they wanted a leaner and more effective Parliament. Now they are voting to keep it much bigger than necessary, purely to retain the Labour government seats in Edinburgh and a majority, supported by the Liberal Democrats.
Overall, the Government have treated Scotland very badly. They are interested only in seats at Westminster and Holyrood. It is a disgrace to democracy and, coupled with the astonishing revelations during the current Holyrood inquiry, a disgrace to the Labour Party in Scotland.
8.15 p.m.
Lord Lucas: My Lords, I am delighted that the Government are bringing forward this Bill, as it shows just how much they dislike having us lot here. That is why we are here—as an irritant, to get up their noses and give them an impetus to produce stage two and a decently organised House of Lords to take through the rest of the century. The fact that our presence gets up their noses something rotten is exactly what the guarantee was about.
There is no conceivable reason why there should be 92 hereditary Peers in this House if a deal had not been done. There was no logic in having any remaining hereditary Peers after the first House of Lords Bill unless as a guarantee of later things. I find it shameful that the Government should think of repudiating that. Of course the Government change their minds: they did so on tuition fees; they wanted an elected House of Lords and now they want an appointed one. That seems to be all in the life of a government. But to go back on such an undertaking on the continued existence of the 92 hereditary Peers—in other words, the bringing forward of stage two—is shameful. I shall support my noble friend with conviction.
Ultimately, it is up to the other place to decide what kind of House of Lords we have. Whether the House of Lords should be elected or appointed is a matter of principle for elected politicians, not something on which I, as a hereditary Peer, should stand pat. It does not, therefore, seem that such an issue can be the essence of stage two. The essence of stage two is that
the House of Lords is a stable, coherent organisation. We will not leave it with major changes still in the wings, and another House of Lords Bill a couple of years away, it being pretty obvious that the Bill to come before us is incomplete and has left major decisions not taken.We cannot judge the Bill at present. The consultation period does not end until 12th December, and I suspect that we shall have to wait until next year to see what is in the Bill. However, the Government must sort out, and take a view on, certain major issues. In their consultation paper, they have not taken a view on fixed-term membership or membership for life. One cannot leave that undone and call this stage two. We must decide on the basis of membership of this House and how we are to progress. We cannot seek such a fundamental debate in the future and say that we have reached stage two. We must know what obligations Members of this House will have and how we will deal with the changing membership of this House as elections dictate a change in the balance. There is some incomplete thinking in the Government's proposals that must be dealt with for us to be able to say that we have reached stage two.
We must be clear about what people are in this House for. People who take up peerages and then not bother to turn up do not do this House justice. If we are to keep membership associated with the peerage—and I am by no means committed to that; it would be excellent if we had called this House a Senate—we should follow the logic of what has happened with hereditary Peers. We must be prepared to sever the holding of a peerage from the right to turn up and vote in this House. People may accept a peerage merely because they have done great political service or they are important people in the world of business or the arts, or whatever else it might be. They may flaunt and sport that peerage outside this House but may not intend to turn up much. Well, we have an honours system, so why not give them that honour? However, if they are not prepared to accept the obligations that come with being a Member of this House, they should not have the right to sit here.
We should allow people who, in all the best faith, take on a peerage and say that they will take part in this place and then do not, to retire from it gracefully. If they do not participate to the extent that we expect, we should require them to retire gracefully—or gracelessly. If we had that degree of turnover or obligation it would become much easier to deal with the changing pattern of the House that we could expect to see from one election to another.
Such basic questions need to be settled. However, next year, we could have before us a Bill that solves those problems and leaves open only the arguments about the proportions in the House, the exact details of its comings and goings, and how we deal with people who vote for the Green Party or other such matters. Those are not fundamental things. As an hereditary peer, I could not stand up and claim that the Government had broken their word because they had not done what I wanted them to do in respect of some
of the relatively minor aspects of the House of Lords Bill. I am quite hopeful that, at the end of the day, we will see a Bill that constitutes stage two. I am disappointed, however, that the Government are not promising that at the moment. They seem to think that they can get away with something that is an incomplete stage two and go back on the word that they first gave us those few years ago.We must be careful with our constitution. It is important to fight for democracy. After all, we are fighting for democracy in Iraq at the cost of many lives, but we are not prepared to introduce democracy to the House of Lords. We should put our hearts behind defending and promoting democracy whenever the opportunity arises. Although we seem to live in a comfortable world at the moment, with a benign Government and good economic prospects, we must be conscious that that may not always be the case.
We must be careful to defend the independence of the judiciary. When those Bills come before us, we must be careful that we are comfortable about going forward with such matters and we must pay the greatest attention to what the noble and learned Lords the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary are saying about the effects of the abolition of the Lord Chancellor on the long-term independence of the judiciary.
The Government are not averse to gathering enormous powers unto themselves. The draft civil contingencies Bill would, in the event of a crisis, have given the Government the power to abolish or tear up legislation and, by ministerial fiat, to create any legislation. Perhaps we will see something different when the Bill emerges, but under the draft Bill they would have the power to destroy the constitution—to abolish judges and Parliament and create a dictatorship—and it would all be entirely constitutional and legal. We must be careful about those things. It is sensible to give the Government power to deal with an emergency and say that, in such an event, they should be able to make things right as quickly as possible. However, we must be careful to guard against the advent of a less benign government.
As the Leader of the House said, we face falling numbers of people voting and a lack of faith in our institutions. That sort of trend is rather like the brush drying out in the south of France—it creates conditions in which a fire can burn. A new philosophy or political movement could pick up and quickly gain support from those who have become disillusioned, disenfranchised and disconnected from the political process of which we are part. We have to be sure that, if such an event occurs, democracy will be robust. That means that we must fight hard, when the House of Lords Bill arrives, to make sure that we have a robust institution, safe from the power of an overweening government. We must not have an institution that the Government can master.
We must be sure that we keep the judges safe. They are the guarantee of the power of the individual against the state. We must be sure, to the extent that they must do things to satisfy us, that the Government keep their word. Casting aside such a solemn and binding promise is not the sort of precedent that we
should set. It is not a great inconvenience to the Government that we should continue here until they are able to fulfil the promise. I am glad that it is a sufficient inconvenience that they feel that they want to fulfil their promise.8.26 p.m.
Viscount Tenby: My Lords, it is with some diffidence that I take part in the debate, a diffidence that, some might feel, is generated by the fear of any charge of self-interest. Apart from a longstanding family concern in the reform of the House of Lords, I pray in aid the fact that I am one of the three surviving Peers whose names appeared on the so-called Weatherill amendment, Lord Carnarvon having, sadly, passed on since then.
I recall being slightly surprised at the time that the Government should have accepted the amendment so readily. Of course, it offered the prospect of a fairly quick resolution to a problem that might have dragged on for an embarrassingly long time. No doubt it was also felt by some that a measure of agreement might be possible in three years. In hindsight and given the intractability of a problem with a 150-year history, we might have won the blue riband for optimism, even in a profession that exists on it.
Because of what was said then and has been said on numerous occasions in the intervening period, I am in no doubt that, in seeking to overturn their solemn undertaking, the Government have left themselves open to the charge of acting in bad faith. That is a serious matter in the normal run of things, but is particularly so if it jeopardises future parliamentary business and results in the souring of relations in this House, which are normally genuinely friendly.
It is an unusual concept—one, I suspect, that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor would not, in his distinguished legal career, have met too often in the commercial courts—that a change of circumstance entitles one of the two parties to an agreement unilaterally to declare it null and void. It is difficult to imagine how, were that to be the norm, the City of London would enjoy the pre-eminence that it enjoys today. The bond market—if I may make a play on words—would become seriously devalued.
With his genuine charm and skill, the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor has, for the most part, managed to restrict criticism of the Government's proposals to accusations of being disingenuous. By a happy chance, I found in my dictionary that the word after "disingenuous" is "disinherit". I digress.
Unpalatable though the circumstances are, we must move on. To coin an in phrase, that was then and this is now. As if to reinforce that point, I was struck by the phrase used by the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition following Her Majesty's gracious Speech last Thursday. I was so struck that I wrote it down. Because I do not make a habit of doing that, I hope that I have got it right. The noble Lord said:
- "We recognise our duty to carry the Queen's business".—[Official Report, 26/11/03; col. 14.]
I hope that the amendments moved today do not precede a scorched earth policy in respect of the Government's forthcoming legislative programme.
To embark on such a course in the coming Session would be counter-productive and the equivalent of committing hara-kiri or, as Adlai Stevenson was noted as saying in another context,
- "As a very rich, tired man said to his chauffeur, 'Drive off the cliff, James. I want to commit suicide'".
Quite apart from anything else, it would enable the Government spin machine, and through it the media, to point out—correctly or otherwise—that much-needed legislation was being obstructed by a handful of unelected toffs, or whatever elegant phrase the tabloids come up with. That is, I know, slightly ironic when one bears in mind that, however bizarre the elections and the size of the electorate, the group referred to is the only one in the place technically to have been elected.
Where do we now stand in this epic reform? It is welcome news indeed that the Joint Committee has been asked to try to resolve the impasse and there are certain peripheral matters which at least can be settled relatively easily such as, for example, faith representation. The inclusion of appropriate representatives of other Christian denominations, the Jewish community and other ethnic faiths should be relatively simple to kick start, commanding as it does general support from all sides. I must leave it to the legal professionals to battle it out over the proposals concerning a supreme court and the appointments system within the judiciary, while it would take a whole debate in itself to comment on the future role of the Lord Chancellor. I have not left time for that.
Perhaps I may turn to the composition of the House itself. Nothing that has been said in our many debates on the subject has altered my conviction that this should be, if not an all-appointed House, at least a largely appointed one if it is to retain its role of revision and constructive improvement of legislation. It seems to me that at the very heart of the opposition to this concept is not only an all-embracing and admirable dedication to the democratic process, but rather the fear and suspicion surrounding any appointment arrangements that are finally made. However, I refuse to believe that, if the will is there, it will not be possible to devise a transparent and open selection system which will be demonstrably fair and which can make use of the best talent that this country has to offer.
I move briefly from the general to the particular. Surely it is inconceivable that the new statutory appointments commission—if it survives the thought-provoking dissection made on it earlier in the debate by my noble and gallant friend Lord Craig of Radley—will not, for the most part, nod through the political lists presented to it by the appropriate groups.
However, understandably and for historic reasons, there exists no machinery with similar authority to provide Cross-Bench names. That is a lacuna which demands early attention—initially of course from the Cross-Benchers, but then sympathetic support from the Government—before the newly appointed commission
starts to spread its wings. In the first instance, only working Cross-Benchers will possess the necessary knowledge to assess whether a name may be suitable for such a list. This would be no theoretical exercise, for although it is generally accepted that the right to a seat through birth is no longer appropriate—we have heard that repeated countless times during the debate—surely those evicted should have as much right as any other citizen to seek selection. Indeed, in a rational world, their years of service and consequent expertise on how this place is run might in some cases even give them a good start over the rest of the field.What is beyond doubt is that if the oft-repeated commitment to a strong and independent element in the new House is to be anything more than a pious aspiration or a media soundbite, then these matters will have to be addressed, along with the need for a larger and more representative independent element on the new statutory appointments commission itself. I cannot speak for the Cross Benches as a whole; it is an old and honourable tradition that we speak only for ourselves, but I believe that in emphasising these points I may be reflecting a general feeling in their ranks. It is one of which the Government will wish to take note when they seek Cross-Bench approval for any future proposals.
That great constitutional expert, Walter Bagehot, wrote some 130 years ago that:
- "It is incredibly difficult to get a revising assembly because it is difficult to find a class of respected advisers".
8.35 p.m.
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen: And now for something slightly different, my Lords. I have chosen to speak in the debate because, before I entered your Lordships' House, I worked for more than 30 years in the field of equal opportunities, and aspects of equal opportunities are to be debated today in this part of the response to the gracious Speech.
The Conservative years were lean years from an equal opportunities point of view. Yes, we had the Sex Discrimination Act and the Race Relations Act already on the statute book, but successive Conservative governments did nothing to build on them. Indeed, it appeared at times that they were deliberately weakening them. There was little understanding of, and scant sympathy for, those who were discriminated against. The only real step forward in this area came via the much maligned European Commission, which was more enlightened than the Conservative Party.
Since 1997 this has changed substantially. The Labour Government came to power with a pledge to improve equality legislation and they have done so. Such improvements have, in my view, been among their greatest achievements. They are still continuing to improve the legislation, as can be seen by a number of measures outlined in the Queen's Speech.
A Bill is to be introduced to allow same-sex couples similar legal rights to married partners in such areas as inheritances, pension survivors benefits, parental responsibilities and many other areas. This is a radical measure, long overdue in our legislation, which will bring to same sex-couples the security previously denied them.
The gracious Speech also contained proposals for a further discrimination Bill designed to rectify weaknesses and loopholes in the Disability Discrimination Act 1995. It should extend the definition of disability and enable many more disabled people to be protected against discrimination and, it is to be hoped, will provide a public duty to positively promote disability equality and diversity, thus removing the justification for employers taking discriminatory action against disabled employees.
In addition, included in the proposed Employment Relations Bill will be measures to change the law to allow unions to exclude racists and fascists from their memberships. Of course, some unions have already taken action along these lines, one of the first being—perhaps surprisingly—the Prison Officers' Association. It introduced a rule to ban members of the National Front from its membership in the mid-1990s and expelled certain members from its ranks accordingly. The proposals in the Employment Relations Bill will allow extension of such action. Such proposals in all three Bills have been welcomed by both the TUC and the EOC as forward-thinking and positive measures.
I am often asked why I feel so passionately about equality issues. To me, the answer is simple. If we wish to build a civilised society, fair to all its citizens, then equality of opportunity must be a baseline for that society. Equality legislation goes beyond merely placing equality on the statute book; it sets the scene for society's attitudes. Equality is not only about the rights of minorities; it helps to create a society in which everyone can fulfil his or her potential; where differences are both valued and respected; and where individuals and communities can live safely and with dignity in a more cohesive way.
Once discrimination is recognised and acted against, there is less chance of discrimination being accepted; there is less chance of hearing sexist, racist or gay so-called jokes; there is less chance of a person's disability being laughed about or remarked upon; and there is more chance that each person will be valued for themselves.
Although it was not mentioned specifically in the Queen's Speech, I understand that further steps will be taken in the equality area by the establishment of a new single equality commission, about which a White Paper is expected, possibly—hopefully—in the spring. The EOC, the CRE and, more recently, the Disability Rights Commission have carried out sterling work over the years. However, the equality legislation with which those bodies work needs overhauling and upgrading, as all legislation does eventually. The Government believe that the full implementation of the relevant two EU directives provides a great opportunity to do just that, and propose to establish a
single equality body rather than establishing three new commissions—for religion or belief, sexual orientation and age.Like the EOC and the TUC, I believe that such a commission must be based on a strong vision of why equality matters; it must have real teeth and definite powers; it must respect the diversity and the needs of each of the strands that it will cover; and, above all, it must be adequately resourced. I ask my noble and learned friend to draw to the attention of those currently working on the establishment of the new body the need for adequate powers and sufficient resources to enable it to work well.
Finally, I turn briefly to the reform of the House of Lords. As a member of the Joint Committee, I have been immersed in the issue for some time. Much has been said about what was, and what was not, in the 1997 Labour Party manifesto. Whatever the actual words were, I do not believe that it was ever in the Government's mind to have a clone of the other place in this House. The Joint Committee had hoped that there would be some form of consensus when the two Houses voted. In the event, it was not to be so. However, this House spoke firmly against election to it, which cannot be ignored. The other place did not get its act together and gave very little steer for the future.
During the debates in both Houses and in the Joint Committee, several issues were raised that could and should be considered further, such as the size of the House; how to improve the membership geographically, with geographical representation; and, possibly, even the length of time for which Members should be appointed. I was pleased to hear my noble friend refer to a future joint committee in her opening address, and hope that such issues can be considered in future.
8.42 p.m.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson. We served together on the Joint Committee. I was very surprised to hear her account of the previous Conservative governments and their contribution towards equality. I would have been far more persuaded of her enthusiasm for equality if she had taken time to denounce the provisions in the gracious Speech that aim to discriminate against middle-class children going to universities. That will be the effect of the proposals—
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