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Lord Whitty: My Lords, I agree that it is important that the public and private sectors work together in this matter. The tremendous effort that has been expended in the veterinary and scientific worlds to counter the disease is a good example of that co-operation. I shall consider the precise research proposal that the noble Countess mentioned. However, the general position is that all research involving FMD viruses, dead or alive, can be carried out only in certain establishments where the highest degree of disease containment is applied. We need to maintain that position. It is not a question of fear of competition but of making sure that during the epidemic no problem arises from any research which may be conducted. Nevertheless, I undertake to let the noble Countess know the position with regard to this proposition.
I regret if misleading information was given. However, many of the staff drafted in come from departments other than the former MAFF. They have had to learn the job very rapidly, on the end of a telephone. I was yesterday at the control centre in Exeter and was deeply impressed with the way in which staff were dealing with inquiries. In general they have performed better as they have gone on. When one looks back, some mistakes will have been made. I am sorry that the noble Countess may have been a victim of that. However, in general the information given and the standardisation of that information has now been pretty effective.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, I welcome very much the thrust of what the Minister said, in particular the support the Government will give to industries and businesses in rural areas. At the end of the Statement he said something very interesting: that farming and rural areas are not likely to get back to where they were previously; and he proposed to look into the future of agriculture and rural areas in a different way. Can my noble friend say a little more on that and about the process by which his department would embark on that thinking?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, some important decisions with regard to the eradication of the disease and the immediate exit from the disease will face Ministers in the coming days, weeks and months. In addition--the creation of the department is part of it--we shall look at the long-term future of farming and the food chain in this country. A number of economic, social and environmental problems confront them.
My noble friend, who reads party manifestos avidly, will know that within the Labour Party manifesto was a reference to such a policy commission. We hope to make an announcement on that in due course. That would help Ministers give strategic thought to the future of farming and food production and distribution within this country.
Lord Crickhowell: My Lords, perhaps I may ask the Minister one practical question. Shearing in some parts of the country is difficult because of the impossibility of moving sheep and because many of those who normally take part in shearing come from Australia and New Zealand and for obvious reasons have not visited the country. Is the noble Lord's department doing anything to ease the severe problem?
While we welcome his admission that there has to be an inquiry, we do not understand, and the agricultural industry will not accept, that the start of that inquiry should be delayed until the outbreak is completely over. There is strong belief that we should set up the inquiry to consider the issue as a matter of urgency. I am glad that the new Leader of the House is in his place. He will come to understand that the issue will not go away and that many strong feelings are held on it.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I accept that an inquiry will be necessary. I do not accept that we should divert the expertise that is currently still involved in the eradication of the disease--the outcome of which is not yet certain--to provide the information and historic analysis required for any inquiry to come to sensible conclusions. It is sensible to wait until the disease is eradicated before the establishment of an inquiry. Therefore, I do not accept the implications of his remarks.
The veterinary service has introduced a system of licensing for shearers and dippers which should control movements. Compared with the normal process at this time of the year, there is much greater control over movements on and off the farm and of the individual personnel involved.
Lord Hylton: My Lords, can the Minister confirm that there is now no delay between diagnosis of the disease and slaughter of the animals affected? Are normal markets beginning to reopen in the de-restricted areas?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, if the noble Lord refers to livestock markets, they are not operating in normal circumstances. There are restrictions on movements throughout the country. Therefore, in general, the markets are not operating normally.
We have a target of 24 hours from identification. In the majority of cases, that is now being met. In all cases it is being met within 36 hours.
Lord Hardy of Wath: My Lords, has the Minister noted the comparisons between outbreak in 1967 and the current outbreak? One comparison--it has been ignored--is that since 1967, and during the 1980s when the previous government were in power, there was a substantial reduction in the number of qualified staff employed by the Ministry of Agriculture. Those of us who expressed unease or criticism of that reduction now feel that our comments are vindicated.
Does my noble friend accept that had we had the number of staff which existed in 1967 the disease may well have been encountered earlier and that malpractice with regard to the movement of livestock may have been less likely? While it is fashionable to argue against regulation, is it not clear that regulations concerning animal health need to be supervised properly and adequately enforced?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, it would not be sensible to agree entirely with my noble friend that the cause of the rapid spread of this outbreak in the past was attributable to lack of staff. Clearly that is one aspect which any review of the control of this disease would need to address. The department is aware of that aspect.
I agree with my noble friend that the proper enforcement of regulations and the appropriate nature of those regulations are part of what we need to learn from this sad episode. Contrary to what is sometimes said, clearly some of the problems of the agriculture industry stem from the non-application of regulations rather than over-regulation. It behoves everyone to recognise that. In future, the regulations governing the movement and treatment of stock should not only be observed but properly inspected and enforced.
Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior: My Lords, despite the good news of only a single case of foot and mouth disease in the past day or so, does the Minister agree that the urgency of this emergency is still with us? That urgency must be communicated to everyone associated with livestock. Many of the recent outbreaks have been due to people ignoring the biosecurity regulations. I hope that those concerned with the opening up of footpaths and the easing of restrictions, desirable as that may well be, will consult closely with the relevant authorities which know something about foot and mouth disease.
Complacency can creep easily into our thinking. The virus is no respecter of complacency. It is one of the most infectious viruses of which we know. I hope that the noble Lord's department will impress upon people in agriculture and the rural environment the need to respect the biosecurity which has been laid down.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I agree with the thrust of the noble Lord's remarks. Clearly, biosecurity is essential.Whatever caused some of the initial outbreaks in the areas with which we are now concerned, it is clear that the spread within those areas is in part due to the lack of observing relatively elementary biosecurity rules on-farm and in terms of transport. That needs to be addressed. The farming community and those who transport livestock need to be well aware of that. The Government insist on that. Others in the rural area, including those who would use the footpaths, need to be aware of the restrictions. It is necessary to ensure that any lifting of footpath restrictions takes account of the biosecurity implications.
I do not regard one case overnight as good news. As long as we have just one case, it is still bad news and we still have to tackle the issue.
Lord Palmer: My Lords, what is the time delay between vets in private practice or hunt servants submitting their bills for helping to cull livestock to help to eradicate this terrible disease and them receiving payment?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I shall need to give the noble Lord a detailed reply. There have been some complaints about delay in payment for veterinary services and other payments. It is important that we meet those obligations as rapidly as we can. We are committed to ensuring that those payments are made with due dispatch. I shall let the noble Lord know what the current delays are and how the situation is--hopefully--improving.
Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, the Government's attitude to an inquiry into this outbreak of foot and mouth disease contrasts starkly with their attitude to an inquiry into BSE. That outbreak began a long time ago and, sadly, is still not over, yet paradoxically we have already had the conclusions from the inquiry while the disease continues. I simply make that point for what it is worth.
The Minister implied, even if he did not specifically state, that the Government were thinking of possibly having to override local authorities that appear reluctant to open up access to the countryside with the speed that the Government think desirable. We all thoroughly understand the Government's desire to help to rejuvenate the rural economy. In his response to the Opposition Front Benches, the Minister appeared to imply that that would be done after consultation. Will he clarify that? If he was correct in the Statement and the Government are planning to override local authorities, under which power will they do so? He will understand that I am suffering from a memory failure.
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