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Baroness Fookes: Perhaps I may first declare an interest, although it is entirely non-financial, as a member of the RSPCA for many years, a former chairman of its council and currently a vice president. The Committee will not therefore be surprised to find that I am a member of an endangered species--a Conservative Peer who supports the total ban. However, I do not intend to hang my head in shame at any of the activities of the society, which I support. Hell will freeze over first.
I do feel very strongly about this issue, but I hope that I can be absolved from either total ignorance or perpetuating class hatred. As a child and youngster, I rode a great deal. It was a natural extension in those days, as I believe it still is today, to follow the hunt; and I did. But I changed my mind and I have held my present views for a good many years. So I hope at least that the sincerity of my motives will not be questioned, however much Members of the Committee disapprove of the view that I take.
For me, the main issue is the welfare of the animals that are hunted and whether or not they suffer. I prefer not to use the word "cruelty" because it has particular connotations. What I am concerned about is whether the animals suffer and whether, if they have to be killed for reasons of pest control, hunting is the best way to do it or whether there are other better ways. In that respect, I disagree fundamentally with the views expressed so eloquently by the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu.
In my view, the suffering comes in two phases. At the end, it is by no means certain that the animal concerned is killed instantaneously. Indeed, post-mortems on foxes and other creatures show that death is not instantaneous. Therefore, there is suffering at that point. What is even more important for me is the actual rigour of the chase. Let us remember that we are not simply talking about foxes, as many Members of the Committee have tended to do. We are looking also at stags, hares and even mink. I believe that real suffering is involved. Some very respectable scientific research suggests that there is a real element of suffering in the chase, a chase that may last for 20 minutes or several hours. That, to me, is totally unacceptable.
Much has been made of the fact that the Burns report did not refer to cruelty. But it is enough for me to hear the phrase, reported a number of times, that the welfare of the fox, the stag and so forth is "seriously compromised". That is an attempt to make it as impartial as possible, but for me that must mean suffering and I do not accept that it should continue. I understand the views of those in the countryside who are suffering so greatly at the moment, but I am not
responsible for that or for the timing of the Bill. We can deal only with what is before us today. I shall vote for the ban.Perhaps I may deal briefly with another point, as I know that Members of the Committee are anxious to proceed to votes. I am concerned that the very worst of the other methods of control are being put before us. That is a clever device, but there are means of controlling animals that are pests. Perhaps I may refer to lamping, which was indeed mentioned in the Burns report, whereby the fox is found at night under a powerful beam of light and is then shot with a rifle. That may not be appropriate in all cases, but in the hands of those who are competent, it is a way of dealing with foxes satisfactorily and with the minimum of suffering.
Lord Mancroft: I am most grateful to my noble friend for giving way. Over the weekend she will have seen reports on the television and in the press stating that the chief vet of the RSPCA, of which my noble friend is a vice-president, has drawn attention to the very real welfare concerns as regards the culling of livestock by soldiers using rifles.
It is clear that it is difficult to kill sheep with a rifle at close range, even for a trained soldier. If it is difficult for a soldier to kill a sheep at close range with a rifle, does not my noble friend understand how much more difficult it could be for a marksman to kill a rather smaller animal at longer range and under more difficult conditions. Although I understand the points made in his report by the noble Lord, Lord Burns, as regards the use of alternative means of control, the matter is not quite that simple. Considerable difficulties will be encountered if lamping is to become the sole means of culling foxes.
7 p.m.
Baroness Fookes: I am not suggesting that lamping should become the sole means, but those who wish to see a total ban on hunting have been challenged to suggest other methods. I still believe that, in skilled hands, lamping should be perfectly possible. I assume that soldiers are not used to killing sheep.
I remain firmly of the opinion that other methods can and should be sought. In any case, if the culling of foxes and other animals is so important, it seems to me that hunting is an extraordinarily inefficient way of achieving that aim. I do not believe that anyone is suggesting that, currently, hunting accounts for the majority of those animals killed for culling purposes. That is a very important point to make.
I am aware that I am highly unlikely to change anyone's views, but I felt that I had to put on to the record the feelings which I have held, and still hold, very strongly indeed. Finally, I am not happy with the proposed alternatives because they do not deal with what for me is the essential point about hunting: that is, the chase. It may be prolonged, and it is a fact that
hounds--I believe that I should call them dogs now--cannot be controlled to the extent that one can be sure that death will be instantaneous. I rest my case.
Viscount Astor: It may be convenient to noble Lords--
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: I should remind the noble Viscount that we are in Committee, not at Second Reading or on Report. I hope that the noble Viscount who is trying to speak from the Dispatch Box does not believe that he can close down debate on this Bill simply because he has risen to speak. That is not going to happen. Other people, including myself, wish to speak. I am going to speak. The noble Viscount should make up his mind. If he wishes to speak now, he can do so. Indeed, if he wishes to speak before the right reverend Prelate, he can do so. However, I intend to speak in this debate.
Viscount Astor: I am delighted to give way to the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart. Furthermore, if the right reverend Prelate wishes to speak, I am sure that the Committee would like to hear what he has to say. However, it may be convenient to noble Lords if, after those contributions, I say a few brief words in order to give the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, a chance to respond.
The Lord Bishop of Guildford: I should like to make two points in this debate, both of them of a moral character. They follow on from the speech of the noble Baroness.
First, when we are dealing with legislation, perhaps it takes a Bishop to make the point that not every immoral act should be turned into a criminal act. It is important that we distinguish that point. Parliament needs to consider extremely carefully the effect on society of criminalising behaviour. As a Christian and as a Bishop, there are many things that I believe to be wrong and immoral, but I do not think that the law should ban them. Indeed, if the law did engage in banning many of the things I believe to be immoral, we might have a rather thinner House tonight.
I am opposed to gambling, for example. Many people choose to gamble. We have chosen to regulate that behaviour. Regulating behaviour does not mean to say that the state either approves or disapproves of it; it makes provisions for the benefit of the whole community. We need to consider that carefully when we are legislating.
With my second point, I should like to build on the two excellent speeches made at Second Reading by my colleagues the right reverend Prelates the Bishops of Bath and Wells and of Portsmouth. The other night, I went to see the film "Billy Elliot". I am very sorry that it did not win an Oscar. It took me back to the days of the miners' strike and reminded me of a year of very great social difficulty in our country. It brought back to mind my feelings of uncertainty and opposition to the behaviour of the unions in calling and prosecuting the strike, but also my anxieties as regards the way in which the authorities were dealing with mining
communities on strike. To this day, those communities bear the scars of that dispute. They felt themselves to be engaged in a battle with their own government, with the police and with the authorities.Whatever the rights and wrongs of the case, a minority of people in this society felt themselves to be very much on the fringe of our community. People who went down into the mines to dig out coal, at great cost both to themselves and to their families, and people in generations past whose communities had gone to war by serving in our Armed Forces in defence of our country, were now on the receiving end, as they saw it, of policing and of government behaviour that they found extremely difficult.
At Second Reading, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth made a very important point about social cohesion. I do not believe that democracy is concerned with how the majority can impose its will on everyone else. I believe that Parliament has a duty to listen to the voices of minorities. Thus, in an atmosphere where a serious moral debate is taking place--a proper, moral debate to which the noble Baroness has just contributed so excellently--it is the duty of legislators to provide the climate for that moral debate to continue in decency. It cannot continue if legislators impose their will on people who simply do not understand what they are doing.
Only when we achieve a sense of consent within the communities most directly affected by what we seek to do will we be in a position to legislate. The danger of legislating in the face of communities which find that intention extremely difficult to accept is that we may then undermine and fracture our social cohesion. That is a very important moral and spiritual point which needs to be made in this debate. Parliament, and this House in particular--because of its nature and character--have a responsibility to hear the voices that might otherwise be shut out of this debate. We need to consider these matters as we move towards the vote tonight.
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