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Lord Lawson of Blaby: I shall be brief, partly by not making any Committee stage points and partly because the true Committee stage will be the recommittal stage that we have been promised.
I have never hunted and am far too old now to start. Such knowledge as I have of fox hunting derives from the fact that parts of the Leicestershire constituency I used to represent in another place were hunted over by the Atherston and the Fernie and, when we moved to Northamptonshire, my youngest daughter occasionally used to hunt with the Pytchley. I learnt a little that way and I have to say to the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, who talked about animal lovers, that of all my children, she happens to be the most devoted animal lover.
The pleasure in hunting is not a pleasure in the kill; it is the pleasure in the chase. But then, to adapt Macauley, those who wish to ban fox hunting do so not because they wish to spare the foxes pain, but because they dislike the pleasure it gives to the participants.
Strong emotions are involved on both sides of this debate, and we have heard some of them today. But they are rather different. On one side, it is overwhelmingly the love of hunting and the way of life that has grown up around it; on the other side, it is predominantly, although not entirely, a hatred of those who hunt and what they are perhaps mistakenly believed to represent. I have no difficulty in deciding between the two which is the most congenial.
But emotion is not a good basis for legislation. Legislation must be based on principle and on reason. The principle at stake here is one of the most fundamental we could possibly find; that is, the principle of liberty. I know that against that there is, ostensibly at least, a case made in terms of animal welfare. But if concern for animal welfare was the overriding consideration, why pick on fox hunting? Fishing and shooting "compromise welfare"--to use the term of my noble friend and former Treasury colleague Lord Burns--just as much as fox hunting, as does the process by which we are able to enjoy the pleasures of meat eating. So, if there is any distinction to be made, it should tell in favour of fox hunting. At least if there were not fishing or shooting, the fish and the pheasant would be spared the predation of man. Similarly, if there were to be legally enforced vegetarianism, the cow and the sheep could sleep peacefully and be protected. But foxes will be culled anyway, and as we know from the Burns report, whatever theoretical abstractions may be put forward, in practice that would cause at least as much and probably more cruelty than fox hunting. So, why pick on fox hunting? The only person who has addressed this on behalf of the Government--it was the Government's choice--was the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, replying on behalf of the Government at Second Reading. When asked about this matter, he stated:
- "There is huge public interest in it. There is no such public interest or support in relation to any sort of ban on fishing or shooting".--[Official Report, 12/3/01; col. 674.]
We have before us in the first vote this evening the issue of whether we shall uphold the principle of individual freedom and whether we shall assert the value of reason in legislation over and above popular prejudice. That is what this place is for. I hope that we shall do our duty by a very large margin.
Lord Bramall: So much has been said already that it seems inappropriate to say anything else. Indeed, I have been urged by a previous commander merely to move that we stop talking and start voting.
Lord Bramall : I feel a great deal of sympathy for that. However, I did not speak earlier and want to make a modest contribution in as brief--and I shall be brief--and as dispassionate a way as possible. I am not a hunting man, nor have I ever had a great urge to be one. However, bearing in mind the eye needed for country; the exhilaration of going fast across country and the not inconsiderable but dashingly accepted risks involved, I have long recognised that hunting provides an excellent challenge to courage and nerve, as well as to horsemanship. It is therefore a pastime seen to have some relevance to those intent on preparing themselves for even greater challenges and risks ahead, particularly in the profession of arms.
I respect that view, and those who hold it, as did Friedrich Engels, which some may find surprising. I am less impressed by the arguments sometimes bandied about that we cannot ban hunting because many of those who now indulge in it would defy the law and go on doing it. Certainly, a total ban would cause large-scale problems in the country. Jobs would be lost. There would undoubtedly be widespread alienation among country folk, and stalwart and honest citizens could well be criminalised. The question of priorities and overstretched police forces would also arise.
If a Bill to ban hunting became law, it would have to be enforced at some time and in some way, however difficult that would be. The argument that after it is on the statute book members of the hunt would still have a birthright or human right to do what they please would have no more validity than the arguments of animal rights protestors and similar groups who feel that they can seriously, and often violently, break the law because they are doing so in the interests of what they believe to be a righteous cause.
Nor can the human rights argument and the "freedom to do what the individual thinks is reasonable" be entirely justified on historical grounds. The noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, raised that issue in an earlier debate. If that were so, those who might want to pursue other forms of behaviour which have, over the years, been banned on the grounds that they constitute unacceptable conduct in an otherwise civilised society could argue the same way.
I am in agreement with the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, on the issue of timing. However, apart from that, with the minimum of emotion and sentiment, the case for or against hunting should rest on whether, with the world as it is, the act of hunting with dogs in a properly supervised way is or is not so contrary to standards of human behaviour in a civilised society and so important in upholding those standards that this popular pastime which requires skill and courage, gives work and livelihood to many and plays a significant role in rural life and nature conservation, should be singled out for special legislation.
From all that I have read and heard--that is a very great deal--listening to the arguments on both sides and, on rare occasions observing, I can only conclude
that hunting neither demands nor deserves such special treatment. I strongly suspect that the Bill would not have got as far as it has had it not in some cases been for reasons and attitudes not exclusively associated with the welfare of the fox.We must consider the predatory and vicious cut and thrust of the animal kingdom in its natural habitat, to which animals must be conditioned; the pain and grief of other forms of necessary fox control and the fact that in a well-organised hunt there is not, as some critics would say, intentional, gratuitous cruelty of inflicting pain of a voyeuristic nature, which is more than can be said of some activities which go on in public. All that must be put into the context and perspective of many activities impinging on the welfare and health of human beings--some may find such activities excessive and perhaps even, at times, degrading, yet they continue to happen--together with even more urgent examples of man's inhumanity to man and that which has to be done to the benefit of man, which cry out to be solved.
Properly controlled hunting cannot possibly fall within the category of being so unacceptable and urgent in terms of standards of human behaviour that it justifies Government interference and cannot be left where it rightly belongs; as a matter of personal conscience and choice whether to hunt or not to hunt; whether to hunt the stag, the fox or the hare--some may see a distinction between those three--or whether to hunt without involving animals but with a drag, which my mother always claims one of her ancestors invented. Although that is not the same in terms of hounds working, it undoubtedly provides as much if not more challenge and risk.
It is a matter of choice, not legislation. It is on that basis alone that I feel that a total ban on hunting with dogs would be not only unnecessary but utterly unreasonable. If I can work it all out, I shall vote to omit the present Schedule 1; I shall vote against any total ban and for the continuation of hunting, to be supervised as other sports such as racing, steeplechasing, boxing, football, cricket and many others so controlled, by those who understand the sport, and with the minimum, if any, Government intervention.
6.15 p.m.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I hope that those in favour of abolition will not think me presumptuous if I say that nothing short of a cataclysm in the views of this House, judged by the debate 10 days ago, can lead to anything but a vote tonight against abolition. It seems to me, therefore, that we, in this House, should concentrate on the choice between self-supervision and independent regulation. That is what I propose to do.
I believe that we should look at this issue not from within the walls of this fine Chamber but from how our debates and the outcome will look to those beyond. I refer in particular to the very many people in this country--whether we think them right or wrong, well-informed or ill-informed--who feel passionately that
hunting is in need if not of abolition of some sort of regulation and control. Perhaps I might give three reminders to the Committee. First, an election is in the offing; secondly, the manifesto has yet to be written or completed, and thirdly, after the election this issue will not have gone away. The question will then arise, which the Government will have to decide, as to whether or not to use the Parliament Act in relation to the issue that we are debating tonight.If one contemplates those three matters, one may reach the conclusion, as have I, that self-supervision in the future will not satisfy that part of the British public which is there to be influenced. I put it that way because it would be a serious stupidity on our part to concentrate on the zealots--the antis--who will never be convinced of anything bar the need to abolish not only this sport but, I suspect, others too. We can forget them.
Furthermore, we must not caricature those who do not agree with the hunting fraternity as either having class hatred, as the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, stated, or being prejudiced. Millions of our countrymen are neither suffused with class hatred nor intentionally prejudiced but they are unhappy with the status quo. Unless we face that fact, we shall lose the argument, if not tonight in the future.
I strongly believe that independent regulation has advantages over self-supervision to which we should not close our eyes. The noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, remarked on compulsory licensing as having a real sanction against those hunts which breach the code. However, I draw the attention of the Committee to the lack of independence of the ISAH alternative. The Explanatory Notes indicate that the membership of ISAH comprises the chairman of the Countryside Alliance's Hunting Committee; the chairmen of the hunting associations; the Masters of Foxhounds Association, the Central Committee of Fell Packs, the Federation of Welsh Packs, the Association of Masters of Harriers and Beagles, the Masters of Basset Hounds Association, the National Coursing Club; the Association of Lurcher Clubs; the Masters of Deerhounds Association; and the Masters of Mink Hounds Association and the National Working Terrier Federation. Do not Members of the Committee think that that is a list of highly independent members?
I put it to the Committee that it will not be credible for us to say that we must not allow the abolition of hunting on libertarian, communal and traditional grounds but that it is sufficient to leave it to ISAH, which has as its members those groups I have mentioned, and the commission of which is made up of seven people, and which is presided over by the chairman drawn from the members and the chairman of the Countryside Alliance. It is absolutely paramount--
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