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Lord Peyton of Yeovil: Perhaps I may--
Viscount Bledisloe: If a licensing system is voted for, it may well be that much will need to be done in amending the detail; for example, in order to give the ISAH a substantial role as the advisory body to the licensing authority. However, that can be done only once licensing is put on to the face of the Bill. It cannot be done, as the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, appeared to suggest--
Lord Mancroft: I am most grateful to the noble Viscount for giving way. I hope that I did not hear him correctly. Under the Countryside Alliance option, the Independent Supervisory Authority for Hunting can indeed overrule the individual governing bodies of the sport. If the governing bodies issued a sanction to one particular hunt--or, in the case of one or two of them, a group of individuals--in respect of something that it had done wrong, the Independent Supervisory Authority for Hunting could indeed overrule the governing body and increase the sanctions.
A substantial sanction could be issued against a hunt. For example--it sounds rather absurd in these circumstances--the removal of a hunt's or a mounted
pack's right to hold a point-to-point would remove, at the stroke of a pen, in the region of 30 to 50 per cent of its income. Further sanctions exist, but the important point is that the ISAH can, if necessary, overrule the governing bodies.
Viscount Bledisloe: I fully accept that. My point was that, if the hunt chooses to ignore what the ISAH and the association of which it is a member decree, it can be thrown out of the association but there is no way in which its activities can be banned.
My second reason for suggesting that one must adopt the middle way was put well by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth. He said:
- "What concerns me is that there is an increasing polarisation between these twin aspects of our society"--
- "in a way which is proving damaging to the nation as a whole. For that reason I support the so-called 'middle way' which I believe will in some degree promote a sense of understanding and level-headedness in [the] ... matter".--[Official Report, 12/3/01; col. 665.]
If your Lordships do not vote for licensing, inevitably there will be a risk that the antis will continue to press the matter. To put the right reverend Prelate's argument more succinctly, there is a chance of a compromise in the middle way; there is no chance of a compromise with self-regulation.
5.45 p.m.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: I am so sorry to have interrupted what I thought to be the terminal remarks of the noble Viscount. I had cherished some hope that he was approaching his end, but he was not.
Listening this afternoon to the speeches made by my noble friend Lord Cope and by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, I found myself in agreement with every word that they said. I do not always find myself in such warm agreement with the Front Bench; however, on this occasion, I am very glad to say that I am. During those two speeches a dreadful nightmare began to form in my mind as to what we would be faced with later. I realised that we might have to listen to the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, floundering in an attempt to answer the unanswerable. If he achieves it, it will be a miracle which I would not expect from the noble Lord.
Let me make it clear that I do not hunt. However, I have on occasion attended meets. I have always been very surprised by the motley collection of people who have attended, sitting on a variety of mounts which beggared anticipation, and dressed in a variety of clothes which I could not possibly have expected.
I face the question which no Members of the Committee can answer easily this afternoon. How can it come about that we in this country, faced as we are with a huge variety of complex issues, are considering the banning of fox hunting--not only that, we are considering doing so in a messy, squalid little Bill which does not deserve a moment's serious attention? I am immensely surprised.
I believe that one thing that people forget about hunting is the paradox that those who go out oddly dressed on a variety of strange mounts with the intent to kill an animal nevertheless know more and care more about wildlife than the majority. It is a paradox which is, I fear, supposedly intentionally ignored by the partisans and the enthusiasts who support this measure.
Another surprising matter to which such people might at least have adverted is the point that has already been made: one consequence of this measure, were it passed, would be that there would be fewer foxes and fewer red deer. Can anyone contemplate that and say that they are willing to risk it?
I turn briefly to the issue of cruelty. Cruelty has many faces. It occurs frequently throughout the whole of nature; yet we are being invited to be rather selective and to consider only one of its aspects. If one accepts that foxes are pests and must be culled, I certainly would not dream of suggesting to the Committee that hunting is not the least cruel of all the available methods. No fox in its senses would wish to be shot at by people such as myself. If I were to hit it, it would undoubtedly not receive a fatal wound.
The closure of many small abattoirs throughout the country was accepted by the Government without question and sponsored through the not-very-respectable organisation that is known as the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way and I am most interested in his argument. Does he agree that it was the previous government, whom he supported, who were responsible for the abolition of about 850 small abattoirs? He probably voted in support of that government on this particular issue.
Lord Lucas: Before my noble friend replies, does he agree that he gave me a great deal of grief about this matter at the time?
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: I did not hear what my noble friend said but I shall deal briefly with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart. It does not seem to matter who made that mistake; the point is that the continued closure of small slaughterhouses involved a great deal of cruelty to thousands of animals which, as a result, have been transported over long distances and often in far from ideal conditions.
I turn to the question of other sports, including shooting, fishing and racing. Will such sports be targets? It is unlikely and unrealistic to think that those who detect cruelty in fox hunting will be keen to lay down their arms and abandon a crusade that they have really rather enjoyed.
If we go down the road of banning everything that we find offensive, something of a nuisance or rather discreditable, we will alter the face of this country, not just that of the countryside. I do not believe that people will be content simply to ban fox hunting; they will
proceed to interfere with and challenge those other activities. To expect them to do otherwise is about as realistic as expecting members of the IRA to abandon the bomb, the bullet and its bullying methods and to sit down around the table like polite little parliamentarians.Reforming is rather fun. Reforming other people--their pleasures, habits and institutions--is an activity in which the other place revels. The pity is that the host of people who went exultingly through the Lobbies to give the Bill a Second Reading in another place seldom look at themselves or their institution in the mirror. If they did, it would tell them a story that might occasionally make them stop in their tracks.
I do not believe that the advocates of the Bill have thought seriously of the Bill's effects on wildlife, farming, horses, racing or the countryside; they have certainly neglected the hounds. They ignore traditions that are not theirs. To them, the ways of the countryside are not important; they are even anathema. I hope that they will have second thoughts and that they will not deceive themselves with the thought that the issue will simply blow over. Their proposal will cause enormous problems of enforcement. The only benefit of which I can think is that we might see the odd policeman in the countryside, which would make a change.
The main point is that the issue will not go away. It will leave behind it a legacy of bitterness among people who feel that their ways have been threatened by those who neither understand nor care.
6 p.m.
Lord Judd: The noble Lord, Lord Cope, referred to the virtue of tolerance. In view of what I am going to say this evening, I suspect that many Members of the Committee will need to show me a good measure of tolerance.
Responsibilities at the Council of Europe meant that I was sadly unable to be present at our Second Reading debate. However, I have read that debate carefully and with fascination from beginning to end. Passion and emotion spring from almost every column. But that debate left me with two overriding impressions: that if ever a subject needed a cool, considered and rational approach, this is obviously one; and that with all the pressures and traumas being experienced in the countryside at the moment, it is precisely the wrong time to have such a debate because such an approach will inevitably be all the more difficult to ensure.
Many in this House whom I deeply respect, some of whom I would like to claim as personal friends, have convictions on this issue that are totally at odds with my own. In ill-fated Cumbria, where my wife and I have in recent years begun to make our home, there are, among our best new friends and neighbours there--people who have gone out of their way to welcome us and to show us generous kindness--those who hold convictions on hunting which I do not share. I do not mind saying that there is a great temptation to lie low and to keep my views to myself, but that would fall short of what true friendship demands.
Like other noble Lords, I have received numerous letters on this issue. Many stress the key social significance of the hunt in rural life. As newcomers--"offcomers", as we are called in Cumbria--we have found that much of the social life there thrives in groups, associations and organisations that have absolutely nothing to do with hunting. To ban or not ban hunting with dogs will have no impact on such activity. Indeed, we have been repeatedly impressed by the vibrant variety of social life in the county. I say to my noble--and genuinely admired--friend Lady Mallalieu that for most people in the county, comradeship is found elsewhere than in the hunt.
Civil liberties have been stressed. Hunting with dogs is certainly not a private or a non-intrusive event. Its noisy and dramatic enjoyment for those involved--not to mention those who follow it and who crowd our narrow lanes with their cars, play radios and carry binoculars--is very public and obtrusive. It is not just a matter of sometimes straying into the gardens and properties of those who are not involved or of disturbing or even occasionally harming their domestic animals, livestock and poultry, which from time to time inevitably occurs; it is much more significantly a matter of the anxiety and distress caused to those who are in the vicinity of the hunt but who do not favour it. Their liberties also matter, as do the liberties of those in society more generally who are offended.
Of course the size and activities of the fox population have to be controlled. It would be foolish to argue otherwise. But in recognising that, it is essential to be measured and objective about just how many sheep, for example, are in fact killed by foxes as distinct from those that die from other causes--and here I do not refer to the current massacres resulting from foot and mouth with the questions that that raises about ultimate responsibility.
In the uplands, more frequent killers include poor mothering, starvation, adverse weather and inadequate shepherding. Foxes are opportunistic and will take dying or sickly lambs, especially twins. There are, I know, predacious activities by individual rogue foxes. Special, professionally competent, targeted arrangements are therefore needed for dealing with that. If clarification in the Bill is necessary, so be it. My noble friend Lord Mishcon was right to underline that. But the number of such occurrences is frequently exaggerated and does not justify a generalised response which is clearly not efficient if the rogue fox is genuinely the target. We would also do well to bear in mind the positive contribution made by foxes to the control of other vermin.
But what most leaves me still unconvinced is why sport and recreational enjoyment have in any way to be confused with the need to cull and control. The necessary management functions should surely be organised dispassionately and professionally, and hunting with dogs as at present undertaken in a sporting context is neither efficient nor cost-effective. Sport and recreation are surely about regeneration; about enabling us to be physically and mentally a qualitatively healthier and better species. I find those
objectives impossible to reconcile with the chase; with the unavoidable and well evidenced stress and cruelty that too easily ensues; and with the blood and gore, quite apart from the terrier sent below and the digging out.We are repeatedly deeply concerned in this House by violence and unsociable behaviour. We talk of zero tolerance. There is an urgent need to re-emphasise sensitivity, concern, compassion and care in our society. I fear that, to say the least, hunting with dogs as it is presently undertaken plays a part in blunting the cutting edge of such social commitment.
The challenge to which I argue that we should be addressing ourselves is how we can keep as much of the excitement and the exhilaration of the hunt, which has been so powerfully described in this debate on behalf of the significant and highly articulate minority who enjoy it, completely separate from any cruelty or danger of cruelty. Indeed, the challenge is to set an example of how fun and joy can be found without hounding or bullying--drag hunting, as advocated by my noble friend Lord Longford, is one obvious approach--and how we can at the same time adopt a professional, economic, effective and altogether more soberly humane method of controlling the fox population by, for example, highly professional, targeted rifle shooting. My noble friend Lady Gibson of Market Rasen made this point, I thought, particularly well in the Second Reading debate. She argued that, when hunting with dogs is banned, minds will then concentrate on the alternatives.
Those then are some of the reasons why I shall vote for the ban and against the first amendment. The so-called "middle way", in my view, makes matters worse. In effect it gives the approval of the state to a sport in which cruelty will remain an inescapable element, albeit regulated cruelty, and will thereby perpetuate the dependence of enjoyment on activity which entails such cruelty. It will also raise issues of supervision for the police about which, despite what the Minister and others have said in this debate today, it appears many policemen themselves are far from happy.
Above all, I believe that it is no message to be sending out to the young in an increasingly brutalising age of egocentricity when the civilised qualities of sensitivity, care, compassion and responsibility are in jeopardy as never before in the past half century.
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